Mark@Abbey M/S 235 Report post Posted May 14, 2015 So the kit has been on now for 1 week with the delicious tuning map. Happy, really happy with the kit in base form, the car feels very powerful and screams its way through the revs, although I can feel the power dropping from 6800rpm or so, this is confirmed with datalogs showing that the intake cam timing is reduced at high revs from delicious, this is an 'advanced base map' designed for many forms of forced induction so they have built in a bit of protection at high revs I guess. You can also see it on 'engine load' Boost pressure on the 39mm restrictor peaks at 0.55bar (8psi) at 6000rpm and then drops down to 0.38bar (5.5 psi) by about 7000rpm and holds around that to the limiter. 3000rpm = 0.17 bar / 2.5psi 4000rpm = 0.31 bar / 4.5psi 5000rpm = 0.45 bar / 6.5psi 6000rpm = 0.55 bar / 8.0psi 7000rpm = 0.38 bar / 5.5psi Cam timing plays a big part in boost pressures when supercharged, so different tuners may get slightly different boost pressures with the same kit. You can see that the restrictor really starts choking flow from 6000rpm. PI injection is only at 35% duty cycle at 6500rpm so this lets me know that there is plenty left in the fuel system to open up the restrictor a touch and go from there. The tune isn't without its issues though, the only gripe I have is during the warm up. Unless you absolutely nanny it when cold, due to the way the map is set up with regards to how much they ask of the cam timing, unless the oil temperature is up to temp, the car will go rich in certain conditions which causes false knock, this in turn is dropping the Advance Multiplier down which reduces ignition timing when you do put your foot down when the engine gets up to temp. There are no fault codes come up or anything like that, but unless the car is babied during warm up I will need to reset the ecu or wait until the car learns that there is no knock and it fixes itself. This is an annoying issue with Delicious are aware about and are currently working on a fix. I'd still prefer to have the car mapped and supported in the UK, which is why I will make the trip down to Abbey eventually. The flash and go was and is convenient and I have had no gripes with Delicious, infact I've only had very good customer service. The PI duty % is all dependent on the PI/DI ratio the tuner is running , running more fuel on the PI allows the DI to be fired for a shorter time (reducing fuel amount injected by the DI) so you can play with the ignition timing a little more without seeing any detonation. The DI does help with charge temps thou. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ade 517 Report post Posted May 14, 2015 Lee - I think you should consider a thicker oil. I know you have a cooler, but there are a few things to consider. 1) Adding an oil cooler reduces presser into the crank (you can measure it at to the top gallery next to AC). Oil can work up to 150C no problem, its the pressure drop as it heats up that is the issue. Adding a coller will keep the oil a bit cooler and more vicous, but the pressure drop unfortunately ruins most gains here. 2) You have more power than stock so it wouldnt hurt to keep the oil pressure a bit higher for the bearings which are seeing ~40% more torque. My oil temp hit 139C on track and oil pressure was 3Bar @ 7krpms. 42psi is a far stretch from the recommended 70PSI @ 100C. I will be going to a 5W40 next oil change. FWIW the TMG recommend 10W60 but an oil cooler is optional.... They recommend HTX 825 (10W-60) http://www.wp-motorsport.co.uk/htx_825_10w-60_elf_lubricants.html Eye popping £242.5 ex VAT!!!! I'd recommend you look at Millers Oils Nanodrive CFS 5w40. I have the same as you at the moment, the 0W20, but its too thin for track use IMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lee 82 Report post Posted May 14, 2015 I think I will give the Elf a miss at that price lol. I head away back to work tomorrow so I'll consider changing out to a thicker oil prior to next track day Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ade 517 Report post Posted May 14, 2015 The ELF stuff is race oil. It doesnt have the modifiers for long service intervals like normal oil. TMG recommend 1km oil changes - thats alot of dollar on oil! The Millers CFS Nanodrive is okay for long service intervals (I checked with Millers because its is branded as race oil). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kodename47 446 Report post Posted May 14, 2015 what is it in the standard map that makes the car audibly "chug" for the first 20 or 30 seconds of running?Retarded ignition timing to help cat light off Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kodename47 446 Report post Posted May 14, 2015 Running more fuel on the PI allows the DI to be fired for a shorter time (reducing fuel amount injected by the DI) so you can play with the ignition timing a little more without seeing any detonation. The DI does help with charge temps thou.It's that fine balance of charge cooling vs ignition timing, I've got a spreadsheet made up to calculate the time/degrees gap between EOI for the DI and ignition timing spark event. You need to know the SOI for the DI injectors and the fueling requirements for the setup though. As advance decreases as boost increases then more DI can be run to help the charge temps (IMO). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cliddell 9 Report post Posted May 14, 2015 FWIW the TMG recommend 10W60 but an oil cooler is optional....They recommend HTX 825 (10W-60) http://www.wp-motorsport.co.uk/htx_825_10w-60_elf_lubricants.html Eye popping £242.5 ex VAT!!!! I'd recommend you look at Millers Oils Nanodrive CFS 5w40. I have the same as you at the moment, the 0W20, but its too thin for track use IMO. Both Miller's and RedLine do 10w60 oil, RedLine also do a 5w50. I'm not convinced of the need for going colder than 10 in most of the UK. And I do rate RedLine quite highly. 1 Ade reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lee 82 Report post Posted May 14, 2015 As I am going back to work tomorrow, I removed my restrictor and put in one I made last time at work which is 40.5mm (1.5mm larger than 'stock') Note: I plan on opening the stock restrictor that comes with the kit up on the lathe at work. Boost pressure 39mm vs 40.5mm 3000rpm = 39mm 0.17 bar / 2.5psi _______ 40.5mm 0.20 bar / 2.9psi 4000rpm = 39mm 0.31 bar / 4.5psi _______ 40.5mm 0.34 bar / 4.9psi 5000rpm = 39mm 0.45 bar / 6.5psi _______ 40.5mm 0.51 bar / 7.4psi 6000rpm = 39mm 0.55 bar / 8.0psi _______ 40.5mm 0.65 bar / 9.4psi 7000rpm = 39mm 0.38 bar / 5.5psi _______ 40.5mm 0.58 bar / 8.4psi (holds this pressure to limiter) I can really feel the difference at the top side. PI duty increased from 34% to 44% duty cycle. Fuel rail pressure is steady. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ade 517 Report post Posted May 14, 2015 Both Miller's and RedLine do 10w60 oil, RedLine also do a 5w50. I'm not convinced of the need for going colder than 10 in most of the UK. And I do rate RedLine quite highly. I agree the 10W is not really an issue in the UK climate, especially if it gets garaged. The problem with a 10W60 or 5W50 is that at 100C, your pressure will be very high. So while a W50 or W60 might be optimal at keeping pressure up during for track temperatures (130-140C), you are compromising road use a bit. That is why I think a 5W40 is a good medium ground. Know one really knows how much pressure is required for the bearings to keep their oil wedge but IMO you want to aim for 60psi @ 7k rpms. Not 42psi that I see on track. Also there is a argument that wide weighted oil is not as good as cloesly weighted oil. e.g. 15W40 is better than 5W40 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GT86Jay 202 Report post Posted May 14, 2015 Its also worth remembering that anything thicker than 0W30 messes up VVTi and causes problems in this engine. Don't put anything higher than the specified oil as the VVTi gets stuck and doesn't switch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ade 517 Report post Posted May 14, 2015 Any data Jay? TMG are toyota offical motorsport devison and they recommend 10W60 without any engine modifications.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GT86Jay 202 Report post Posted May 14, 2015 Any data Jay? TMG are toyota offical motorsport devison and they recommend 10W60 without any engine modifications.... Interesting. No data other than 1st hand experience and some articles about VVTi and using the wrong oil. They run a 10W60 with VVT-i as stock? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ade 517 Report post Posted May 14, 2015 Yes. As discussed above, to keep oil pressure upo at high temps >120C you need a thicker oil. A hot W60 is the sames as a W20 at lower temps. VVTi is the toyota system, our cars use AVCS which is subaru. Its a fairly simple design and has its own pressure regualtion. It relies on the spring force from the rocker to actually move the cam position. All the oil does is lock the cam into position. The reason they spec such a low vicosity oil is for emissions. In the same way the stock brakes are not really upto the job of track work (for more and a few laps), the stock oil is specified for road use. Sure it is unlikely to break an NA car using 0W20 at 140C and 40psi but it might break a car with ~40% more torque or cause undue wear. THe FA20DIT comes with 5W30, an oil to water cooler and a thicker oil pump for a bit more flow. It specifically says in the manual 0W20 is not acceptable. IIRC It has the same bearings on the crank as our FA20. So more oil flow = more pressure, thicker oil = more pressure Clearly subaru didnt think 0W20 was good enoguh for 300HP.* *edit, subaru also made changes to the oil channels on the FA20DIT to improve flow to the bearings* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cliddell 9 Report post Posted May 14, 2015 (edited) I agree the 10W is not really an issue in the UK climate, especially if it gets garaged. The problem with a 10W60 or 5W50 is that at 100C, your pressure will be very high. That's why I'd only consider using that temp range of oil from someone like RedLine or Miller. I used to run an MX-5, to which I'd fitted an oil pressure gauge. I'd had to use Mobil 1 10w40 as that was the best I could get locally. On cold start at idle, the pressure gauge was pegged on the top stop, whilst when hot, after a spirited drive, again at idle, it would barely register off the bottom top. I then changed the oil to Amsoil 10w40 (so the same temperature range) and with that, the cold oil pressure lowered by about 15psi, and the hot oil pressure rose by about 25psi (again, both at idle). Frankly, I thought that was outrageous for the same spec of oil. (Should have said: by choice, I'd still use Amsoil, but it's become rather a pain to get hold of in the UK now). Edited May 14, 2015 by cliddell Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tareim 343 Report post Posted May 17, 2015 that seems to accelerate very quickly, I think I'm going to need a HKS supercharger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ade 517 Report post Posted May 21, 2015 Lee - have you done many track days withthe AP 4pot brake kit? How are dust boots and paint colour holding up to track temperatures? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smudge 1020 Report post Posted May 21, 2015 Almost identical to my Sprintex https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIMNoWMGBaQ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lee 82 Report post Posted May 21, 2015 Lee - have you done many track days withthe AP 4pot brake kit? How are dust boots and paint colour holding up to track temperatures? I've done 3 I think with them fitted. Havent closely checked the dust boots whilst checking how much pad is left (havent needed to change pads yet) so cant comment, there is no discolouration of the calipers though. I've also only driven knockhill with them, which has a 105>30mph breaking zone, followed by a 100+>65 but generally I wouldnt say the track is too hard on brakes. Different people use brakes differently / wrongly on track though which will make a difference to the caliper temps etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ade 517 Report post Posted May 21, 2015 Well, though I have managed to completely burn the 300C red caliper paint, the OEM dust boots are still okay, a bit firm but okay. I wondered weather it was safer to get the 350x32mm 6 pot kit for life of the dust boots and paint. I know its heavier but I like to run long 30min + sessions if I can. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lauren 2259 Report post Posted May 21, 2015 that seems to accelerate very quickly, I think I'm going to need a HKS supercharger You'll want to change your final drive to bring it closer to that of a manual to get the acceleration. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lee 82 Report post Posted July 1, 2015 260 hub hp with a retune being done by Mark at Abbey motorsports today. Sweltering hot as most of the country know, so the struggle was to keep the car cool, maybe a couple more hp in on a colder day but I'm happy with the outcome nonetheless. Cadwell park tomorrow 3 JamesP1991, Keethos and Tweedbean reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tweedbean 151 Report post Posted July 1, 2015 That's some great power, if you are ever at a show or near Rugby, give me a shout as I would love to go out in it to help me make my mind up which route I go for FI wise. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamesP1991 222 Report post Posted July 3, 2015 Great numbers for a very hot day! I can't wait for my turbo to arrive now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lee 82 Report post Posted July 3, 2015 quick vid of the quickest lap where my gopro and AIM Solo were on at the same time. I've many excuses as to why its so slow but I will keep them to myself 3 Keethos, Ade and chillismoke reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites