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Luke

2021 GT86 and BRZ

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5 minutes ago, GT86-Ian said:

If the Boxer engine is so good who else makes one ?

Pretty sure the porche 911 GT2 RS, 2nd fastest production car round the Nürburgring uses a boxer, or 'flat 6' as porsche call it, engine. Just because a engine is more common or popular doesn't mean its better. 

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19 hours ago, Church said:

Boxer is not the only means to get COG of car low. New Supra has lower COG then twins even with much higher and heavier inline-6. 

Despite Toyota's claims, it doesn't:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28101697/toyota-supra-vs-86-center-of-gravity-claim-tested/

As for higher redline, again it's not good for emissions. Honda couldn't make it work ten years ago. People have got to forget about the S2000 engine. You simply can't make NA engines like that any more.

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COG is just one of properties, influencing handling but not the only responsible for it. As for handling itself .. to me supra looks even worse due questionable stock rear suspension behavior. If experienced drivers complain, if tuning shops complain, sounds credible enough for there to be some issues that is really very weird that had slipped through Toyota's development and testing process in final product.

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49 minutes ago, Church said:

COG is just one of properties, influencing handling but not the only responsible for it. As for handling itself .. to me supra looks even worse due questionable stock rear suspension behavior. If experienced drivers complain, if tuning shops complain, sounds credible enough for there to be some issues that is really very weird that had slipped through Toyota's development and testing process in final product.

Yeah I don't think I've heard a single good thing about the new supra.....like sure its a good car but its not a great one. I'm surprised at the amount of BMW parts and stamps all over the final product. It's disheartening when a 50K+ sports car gets reviewed as 'boring, very tame/dead feeling' and a lot of reviewers say the GT86 was more fun to drive. I just hope that Toyota listen to the fan base and current 86 owners and make the GR86 a little more nippy without that torque dip.

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He lost me inside 2 minutes.  Those renderings on the best car website were made by best car themselves, and as he mentions they've just cobbled together bits of other cars including the current GT86.  There's a lot of wild speculation in the video.

There haven't been any spyshots of camouflaged cars yet, no motor show concepts, nothing.  A March 2021 launch seems pretty unlikely.

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Cheers for info was not aware they had been cobbled together. Await more official news then. Thought being Japanese site maybe more legit but sadly seems not then.

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Japanese are also normal people. So it's more then possible for their car journalists to act same to ones in rest of the world, for similar reasoning of taking riscs by making up guesses/rumors to gain credibility/views/profit. Worse then that is when one fake rumor spreads to multiple other news sites reposting it w/o any reality check.

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I think another boxer engine would be a wrong move, could Toyota not fit the 2 ltr BMW engine to the new 86 it would seem the simple option.

BMW engine . Stopped me even looking at the supra. Bad past experience.


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5 hours ago, Angelina said:


BMW engine emoji51.png. Stopped me even looking at the supra. Bad past experience. 

Thing is, in the B58/48 case for the Supra, Toyota had a good review and development in the engine to ensure it met their reliability requirements. As that is their default non-M powerplant, if it was a BMW engine it would be the B48 which has a great reputation. TBH, it would probably be preferable to a Subaru FA/FB engine which is not that resilient in comparison.

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I can't imagine Subaru manufacturing it with a BMW engine.  Would Toyota build it?

To be honest, I'd rather they keep the flat four, it better differentiates the car and there is a lot of aftermarket support for it now.

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2 hours ago, MartinT said:

I can't imagine Subaru manufacturing it with a BMW engine.  Would Toyota build it?

To be honest, I'd rather they keep the flat four, it better differentiates the car and there is a lot of aftermarket support for it now.

I think a lot of people are put of subaru engines because of the whole 'chocolate pistons' reputations scoobys have. Most people don't realise these claims come from people who buy a bog standard impreza, put up the turbo boost pressure and red line it from cold.  

Also, this counts for both the supra and GT86's engines design, but Toyota tend to have incredibly high quality standards, knocking back the BMW engine's design over washers and minor components, and the FA20 for subarus poor fuel injection.

 

I agree with you in that I hope the flat four stays, I just hope they work on either adding a turbo or at least flattening out torque dip issues. The car as it stands now has everything right but is just a lil lacking in the power department. It's a car in the price range of £24-32K I don't expect there to be any 3.0 litre bmw engines or pushing numbers over 200-250 bhp.

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I agree that the Subie engine reputation is entirely down to idiots having them highly tuned and then caning them.  There are equally stories of the stock FA20 holding on to fairly high power numbers.  Mine has been faultless at 300bhp so far, and I don't cane it.

If they could get the new one performing at something like the TD NA kit then I think a lot of owners would be happy.  The problem is always emissions.

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32 minutes ago, MartinT said:

I agree that the Subie engine reputation is entirely down to idiots having them highly tuned and then caning them.  There are equally stories of the stock FA20 holding on to fairly high power numbers.  Mine has been faultless at 300bhp so far, and I don't cane it.

If they could get the new one performing at something like the TD NA kit then I think a lot of owners would be happy.  The problem is always emissions.

Always emissions. Not really sure why toyota strangled the power out with 2 cats, when there are plenty of fast more powerful cars with just as low emissions without putting such a  dent in performance. As you said the upgrade from the likes of TD's N/a tune and replacing the manifold would make a world of difference to a lot of potential drivers. One of my friends has had every jap car under the sun with a minimum of 500+bhp , Rx7, supra, Every model of skyline cept the R34 and his daily drive is a R33 with 680 bhp and after driving my stock 86 he was hyped and is now looking for a cheap mid mileage one as a weekend run around, so it goes to show they are doing something right with the car and power doesn't =fun.

I'm ok with my stock power for now but my end goal is to make sure no standard ST focus or VXR corsa could gap me, so anywhere in the 300-360 range would be enough.  Would be nice if the future models could at least compete with all these common hatchbacks that just have turbos dragging the life out of them. 

 

Side note, hows your car feel at 300 bhp? If i remember right its supercharged right, do you have any issues putting power down and does it still feel like the same car to drive but just a lot quicker? 😁

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It feels exactly like a bigger engine.  Despite the 225 tyres on 8" wheels, it puts the power down and holds on very well.  Power delivery is like a train building up to full power, not the sudden jerk of a turbo catching you out in tricky conditions.  It's smooth and goes to the red line very willingly.  Keep it in a low gear and the torque is just as thrilling as with a turbo.

As for emissions, it passed the MOT on a single cat so I'm not sure why manufacturers have moved away from superchargers.

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2 hours ago, Kono said:

Always emissions. Not really sure why toyota strangled the power out with 2 cats, when there are plenty of fast more powerful cars with just as low emissions without putting such a  dent in performance. As you said the upgrade from the likes of TD's N/a tune and replacing the manifold would make a world of difference to a lot of potential drivers.

I’m pretty sure it’s something to do with emissions requirements for type approval. Hence why you can remove the pre-cat in the manifold and still pass an MOT. Certain versions of the Impreza came with three cats because it was the only way they could get them through type approval in some countries.

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20 hours ago, Neil-h said:

I’m pretty sure it’s something to do with emissions requirements for type approval. Hence why you can remove the pre-cat in the manifold and still pass an MOT. Certain versions of the Impreza came with three cats because it was the only way they could get them through type approval in some countries.

Ouch 3 cats has got to be a killer.

22 hours ago, MartinT said:

It feels exactly like a bigger engine.  Despite the 225 tyres on 8" wheels, it puts the power down and holds on very well.  Power delivery is like a train building up to full power, not the sudden jerk of a turbo catching you out in tricky conditions.  It's smooth and goes to the red line very willingly.  Keep it in a low gear and the torque is just as thrilling as with a turbo.

As for emissions, it passed the MOT on a single cat so I'm not sure why manufacturers have moved away from superchargers.

You brought up a  good point so I looked into it a little and apparently a lot of companies are moving from superchargers over to small turbos because of efficiency, since a supercharger takes power from the engine to create more (increases strain, power drain and fuel usage) which is fine on bigger engines like V6 or higher, however, turbos use a waste bi product to create more power re-purposing it. Obviously turbo lag is a thing, even with twin turbos set at different RPM ranges since it has a minimum gas flow to turn quick enough, buutttt some clever people are creating electric motor turbos (currently used in F1) where a electric motor turns the turbine while the engine isn't rev'ing enough to turn it with emissions basically removing actual turbo lag.

Would be hyped to see this sort of thing used in the next 86 😮

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3 hours ago, Kono said:

You brought up a  good point so I looked into it a little and apparently a lot of companies are moving from superchargers over to small turbos because of efficiency, since a supercharger takes power from the engine to create more (increases strain, power drain and fuel usage) which is fine on bigger engines like V6 or higher, however, turbos use a waste bi product to create more power re-purposing it. Obviously turbo lag is a thing, even with twin turbos set at different RPM ranges since it has a minimum gas flow to turn quick enough, buutttt some clever people are creating electric motor turbos (currently used in F1) where a electric motor turns the turbine while the engine isn't rev'ing enough to turn it with emissions basically removing actual turbo lag.

Would be hyped to see this sort of thing used in the next 86 😮

You say that but I’ve just fitted a Harrop supercharger on my car and some how or other the fuel consumption on a gentle cruise is near as dammit the same. That being said however it does plummet like a stone if you’re pressing on😂

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Not just F1. Actually there was ESC made for ours .. unfortunately it was by enthusiast for whom it was not business, so despite great interest he slowly released few sets with others waiting for year+ in queue .. and then he stopped making them. :(

Even though imho it should be also paired with electric turbo generator to recuperate exhaust gas energy like turbo does and which might be done if car manufacturer takes up to implement such technology, but still this project illustrates that it can be done, and is more down to earth and reasonably priced tech with lot of potential. In my eyes properly implemented ESC (paired with recuperation generator) is better then just about any other type of FI. It would have more efficiency due reused like with turbo otherwise wasted exhaust energy, it would be much easier to place/mount due not being strongly tied like turbo or SC to specific pulleys/belts or exhaust routing and thus where/how to route axles connecting chager and exhaust snails, it has much more fine grained control decoupled from other things like exhaust gas speed or engine rpms, so ecu may command for full boost even at idle 500 rpms, and it won't need any blowoff valves/antilag implementations. In my eyes - win-win-win-win with no cons.

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Always emissions. Not really sure why toyota strangled the power out with 2 cats, when there are plenty of fast more powerful cars with just as low emissions without putting such a  dent in performance. As you said the upgrade from the likes of TD's N/a tune and replacing the manifold would make a world of difference to a lot of potential drivers. One of my friends has had every jap car under the sun with a minimum of 500+bhp , Rx7, supra, Every model of skyline cept the R34 and his daily drive is a R33 with 680 bhp and after driving my stock 86 he was hyped and is now looking for a cheap mid mileage one as a weekend run around, so it goes to show they are doing something right with the car and power doesn't =fun.
I'm ok with my stock power for now but my end goal is to make sure no standard ST focus or VXR corsa could gap me, so anywhere in the 300-360 range would be enough.  Would be nice if the future models could at least compete with all these common hatchbacks that just have turbos dragging the life out of them. 
 
Side note, hows your car feel at 300 bhp? If i remember right its supercharged right, do you have any issues putting power down and does it still feel like the same car to drive but just a lot quicker? 
What other NA engine with similar power numbers are you thinking that does it with 1 CAT?

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I’m pretty sure it’s something to do with emissions requirements for type approval. Hence why you can remove the pre-cat in the manifold and still pass an MOT. Certain versions of the Impreza came with three cats because it was the only way they could get them through type approval in some countries.
Exactly that. MOT is a lot simpler and easier than Type approval which is stringent. Also the car just about passes MOT with 1 cat ,not from cold but when glowing hot.

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You say that but I’ve just fitted a Harrop supercharger on my car and some how or other the fuel consumption on a gentle cruise is near as dammit the same. That being said however it does plummet like a stone if you’re pressing on
I believe there is a bypass valve to not run boost when cruising or low load conditions which explains the economy.

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