NA ECU tuning

[Ade 517]

I wouldnt say it was an issue Lauren. I was just saying that intake without a remaps adds about 6hp.

I agree with what you said. Not sure in the circumstances around Keiths car, but the same dyno can vary a bit with age and envirometal conditions so 6/12/18 months ago it might have read significantly different, higher.

[Varelco 211]

People are getting waaaaayy too caught up on this. There are literally so many variables involved with chassis dynos it’s impossible to determine what’s what. For one you cannot measure crank power from a chassis dyno, so you rely on wheel hp, so it calculated, losses vary between each car. If you aren’t measuring both cars on the same dyno, at the same time, with identical setups and the same dyno set up it throws even more out. Air temperature, pressure and humidty, dyno set up, what gear the pull was made in, tyre pressures, tyre size, transmission and diff oil temperatures (remember that stuff is like syrup) will all have an influence on what numbers the print out reads, engine operating temperature, fuel, the list goes on.

 

For the record mine made 172whp on a Mustang dyno not so long ago. Strong engine? God knows, will be different when it next goes on one. If I’d thrashed it before hand and pumped up the tyres to 50psi probably would of made closer to 180.

[Kodename47 446]

That's why hub dynos rock..... no wheel or tyre loss changes to take into account.

[Lauren 2259]

Many years ago a number of us went on quite a few rolling road days. We found that they didn't vary by more than 1bhp as a rule. 

I would say though that given I got the same this time as I did two years ago, that TD's rolling road is consistent. Our cars were measured on the same day within an hour of each other or so. I think that allows for a reasonable comparison. 

Wheel horsepower has way too many variables hence why it's necessary to measure the transmission losses through coasting down. But whatever way you look at it, both our WHP and Flywheel HP demonstrate that the comparisons are viable. 

If you whack your tyre pressures up you will get more at the wheels but not at the flywheel. That's the point. 

 

[Tareim 343]

10 minutes ago, Lauren said:

Many years ago a number of us went on quite a few rolling road days. We found that they didn't vary by more than 1bhp as a rule. 

 

didn't Mike say that the TDI North dyno reads higher which is why your AE86 was a bit low on the figures?

[Leejay-b 1]

Surely if these cars were losing power when being mapped the decent tuners would know about it, and therefore would not offer N/A maps.

From reading here and on American forums good results can be made, especially with manifold changes, or 2nd decat. 

 

[Leejay-b 1]

3 hours ago, Tareim said:

didn't Mike say that the TDI North dyno reads higher which is why your AE86 was a bit low on the figures?

Tdi North does seem to read higher according to the civic type r forum I use. 

 

Ps. What do standard GT86's make on tdi norths dyno?

[Foulsmell 120]

3 hours ago, Tareim said: didn't Mike say that the TDI North dyno reads higher which is why your AE86 was a bit low on the figures?

Tdi North does seem to read higher according to the civic type r forum I use. 

 

Ps. What do standard GT86's make on tdi norths dyno?

People say this about TDI Ns dyno but they were given a Mugen civic M20 and the dyno read the exact factory power figures so it can't be that far out.

Ariel go there too to have their cars developed so they wouldn't use them

If they were giving is inaccurate readings

[rob275 1817]

6 minutes ago, Foulsmell said:

 

People say this about TDI Ns dyno but they were given a Mugen civic M20 and the dyno read the exact factory power figures so it can't be that far out.

Ariel go there too to have their cars developed so they wouldn't use them

If they were giving is inaccurate readings

They would use them though because everybody likes to brag about figures 

But on a serious note I don't think anyone should be looking at dyno figures too closely other than the amount figures have changed from a tune. Saying the car will gain 20hp from a full exhaust & filter change is true but someone saying their car makes 200 and another 220 makes little odds if they are both dyno'd in different places. Because the chances are the one that made 220 was 200 to begin with alas they haven't really made more gains. 

That said, I think the variance in hp in the FA20 seems pretty high if the dyno day at abbey last year was anything to go by. But in reality, what does 12hp really get you, nothing, because geometry is so much more important as well as driver ability. The living proof of this is Lauren can beat me round a track despite me having a Sprintex. I'm going to blame the sprintex, but the reality is she is just a better driver  

 

[Lauren 2259]

13 hours ago, Tareim said:

didn't Mike say that the TDI North dyno reads higher which is why your AE86 was a bit low on the figures?

Yes he did and maybe TDI North's rolling road reads higher, but the trouble is my AE86 wasn't setup really. The rolling roads I used years ago, didn't include TDI North. 

[Foulsmell 120]

I've not seen any plots but are the mapped cars sacrificing top end bhp for a big lump of mid range power?

[Tareim 343]

15 minutes ago, Foulsmell said:

I've not seen any plots but are the mapped cars sacrificing top end bhp for a big lump of mid range power?

mine will be as I have a UEL manifold

[KevinA 695]

To me the numbers are irrelevant it is the difference between the two cars on the day.

[Foulsmell 120]

To me the numbers are irrelevant it is the difference between the two cars on the day.

What's the mod spec of the cars?

[KevinA 695]

Mine 

Tomei de cat EL manifold, ARK DTS exhaust, Berk front pipe with sports cat, Cobra overpipe. Blitz panel filter and Fensport remap.

Other 86

Stock.

[Mike@TD.co.uk 467]

21 hours ago, GT86Owner said:

but the same dyno can vary a bit with age and envirometal conditions so 6/12/18 months ago it might have read significantly different, higher.

The Dyno Dynamics system uses a weather station to make corrections for different times of the year, this is also not adjustable on the digital software we use, removing a lot of 'human interference' which can occur with the older, analogue software (same graph style to the one above - i'm not saying that particular one has been tampered with btw, just stating the difference for people).

We've ran our own cars at different times of the year, and also when we moved workshops, more so out of our own curiosity really and the machine gives out VERY comparable numbers. Proof of this was again shown in Lauren's car which made almost identical power to what it did nearly 2 years ago on the same machine  

These cars don't make huge peak power figures when naturally aspirated, gains are clear to see through the mid range and 'torque dip' area, drive ability is massively improved over stock. If people are chasing BHP/Pub numbers then I would suggest they look down the routes of forced induction to show huge gains  

[Gringosteve 213]

Loving this post, good insight

[shiftspark 41]

A great thread this and always lots of debate on rr figures but how much difference power wise does it take to show in lap times ? my experience would say very little around the 10-15 hp difference. I keep thinking that the £500+ cost of a map would be better off spent elsewhere to bring lap times down ie tyres,suspension set ups.

Then theres not so much worrying if you have any issues around warranty work.

[KevinA 695]

If you look at TSS results between stock class and mildly modified you get a good idea of lap time differences.

[shiftspark 41]

5 minutes ago, KevinA said:

If you look at TSS results between stock class and mildly modified you get a good idea of lap time differences.

I have but unless you know whats been done to the modified cars is difficult to see what mods work best.

Cheers

[KevinA 695]

My mods normally equal 4-5secs 

[Nicebiscuit 655]

Mine 

Tomei de cat EL manifold, ARK DTS exhaust, Berk front pipe with sports cat, Cobra overpipe. Blitz panel filter and Fensport remap.

Other 86

Stock.

Now that's interesting. Good to see exactly the difference a set of mods make. As you say, good gains right the way through.

Still a noticeable torque dip though. Is it possible to get rid of that without going forced induction?

[Lauren 2259]

Lap times are far more complicated than that though. You can see where Kev and I have been quicker than far more powerful cars a lot of the time and also quicker than the forced induction times. Lap times depend far more on the driver and their ability etc. There's also the matter of suspension and setup, so way too many variables to focus on power modifications in isolation. 

In regard to the 'torque dip', I'm not sure why people worry about it. If you're driving quickly you are always above it. If you're not, you're below it most of the time. The only time I notice it a little is accelerating in 6th gear on the motorway, where it doesn't really matter that much. 

My mods are: 

Injen Induction kit. Full Milltek system, 2nd decat and over pipe. Then there's my suspension stuff and very light wheels. 

[Nicebiscuit 655]

You can easily drive around it, that's for sure. The gear ratios will keep you neatly above it. But I don't want to be screaming around all the time - would be nice to have a bit more flexibility for - say - overtaking on the road.

More to the point I'm just curious why it's there. Driven plenty of cars with vtec type stepped power delivery, but this ones quite unusual in being reasonably torquey low down, revvy at the top, but a bit flat in the middle.

[Camilz 15]

a UEL manifold fixes the dip