Ade 517 Report post Posted November 12, 2015 I wouldnt say it was an issue Lauren. I was just saying that intake without a remaps adds about 6hp. I agree with what you said. Not sure in the circumstances around Keiths car, but the same dyno can vary a bit with age and envirometal conditions so 6/12/18 months ago it might have read significantly different, higher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Varelco 211 Report post Posted November 12, 2015 People are getting waaaaayy too caught up on this. There are literally so many variables involved with chassis dynos it’s impossible to determine what’s what. For one you cannot measure crank power from a chassis dyno, so you rely on wheel hp, so it calculated, losses vary between each car. If you aren’t measuring both cars on the same dyno, at the same time, with identical setups and the same dyno set up it throws even more out. Air temperature, pressure and humidty, dyno set up, what gear the pull was made in, tyre pressures, tyre size, transmission and diff oil temperatures (remember that stuff is like syrup) will all have an influence on what numbers the print out reads, engine operating temperature, fuel, the list goes on. For the record mine made 172whp on a Mustang dyno not so long ago. Strong engine? God knows, will be different when it next goes on one. If I’d thrashed it before hand and pumped up the tyres to 50psi probably would of made closer to 180. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kodename47 446 Report post Posted November 12, 2015 That's why hub dynos rock..... no wheel or tyre loss changes to take into account. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lauren 2259 Report post Posted November 12, 2015 Many years ago a number of us went on quite a few rolling road days. We found that they didn't vary by more than 1bhp as a rule. I would say though that given I got the same this time as I did two years ago, that TD's rolling road is consistent. Our cars were measured on the same day within an hour of each other or so. I think that allows for a reasonable comparison. Wheel horsepower has way too many variables hence why it's necessary to measure the transmission losses through coasting down. But whatever way you look at it, both our WHP and Flywheel HP demonstrate that the comparisons are viable. If you whack your tyre pressures up you will get more at the wheels but not at the flywheel. That's the point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tareim 343 Report post Posted November 12, 2015 10 minutes ago, Lauren said: Many years ago a number of us went on quite a few rolling road days. We found that they didn't vary by more than 1bhp as a rule. didn't Mike say that the TDI North dyno reads higher which is why your AE86 was a bit low on the figures? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Leejay-b 1 Report post Posted November 12, 2015 Surely if these cars were losing power when being mapped the decent tuners would know about it, and therefore would not offer N/A maps. From reading here and on American forums good results can be made, especially with manifold changes, or 2nd decat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Leejay-b 1 Report post Posted November 12, 2015 3 hours ago, Tareim said: didn't Mike say that the TDI North dyno reads higher which is why your AE86 was a bit low on the figures? Tdi North does seem to read higher according to the civic type r forum I use. Ps. What do standard GT86's make on tdi norths dyno? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Foulsmell 120 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 3 hours ago, Tareim said: didn't Mike say that the TDI North dyno reads higher which is why your AE86 was a bit low on the figures? Tdi North does seem to read higher according to the civic type r forum I use. Ps. What do standard GT86's make on tdi norths dyno? People say this about TDI Ns dyno but they were given a Mugen civic M20 and the dyno read the exact factory power figures so it can't be that far out. Ariel go there too to have their cars developed so they wouldn't use them If they were giving is inaccurate readings 1 rob275 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rob275 1817 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 6 minutes ago, Foulsmell said: People say this about TDI Ns dyno but they were given a Mugen civic M20 and the dyno read the exact factory power figures so it can't be that far out. Ariel go there too to have their cars developed so they wouldn't use them If they were giving is inaccurate readings They would use them though because everybody likes to brag about figures But on a serious note I don't think anyone should be looking at dyno figures too closely other than the amount figures have changed from a tune. Saying the car will gain 20hp from a full exhaust & filter change is true but someone saying their car makes 200 and another 220 makes little odds if they are both dyno'd in different places. Because the chances are the one that made 220 was 200 to begin with alas they haven't really made more gains. That said, I think the variance in hp in the FA20 seems pretty high if the dyno day at abbey last year was anything to go by. But in reality, what does 12hp really get you, nothing, because geometry is so much more important as well as driver ability. The living proof of this is Lauren can beat me round a track despite me having a Sprintex. I'm going to blame the sprintex, but the reality is she is just a better driver 4 Gringosteve, Foulsmell, MikeB and 1 other reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lauren 2259 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 13 hours ago, Tareim said: didn't Mike say that the TDI North dyno reads higher which is why your AE86 was a bit low on the figures? Yes he did and maybe TDI North's rolling road reads higher, but the trouble is my AE86 wasn't setup really. The rolling roads I used years ago, didn't include TDI North. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Foulsmell 120 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 I've not seen any plots but are the mapped cars sacrificing top end bhp for a big lump of mid range power? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tareim 343 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 15 minutes ago, Foulsmell said: I've not seen any plots but are the mapped cars sacrificing top end bhp for a big lump of mid range power? mine will be as I have a UEL manifold Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinA 695 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 To me the numbers are irrelevant it is the difference between the two cars on the day. 3 GT86Jay, Foulsmell and Keethos reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Foulsmell 120 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 To me the numbers are irrelevant it is the difference between the two cars on the day. What's the mod spec of the cars? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinA 695 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 Mine Tomei de cat EL manifold, ARK DTS exhaust, Berk front pipe with sports cat, Cobra overpipe. Blitz panel filter and Fensport remap. Other 86 Stock. 1 Foulsmell reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike@TD.co.uk 467 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 21 hours ago, GT86Owner said: but the same dyno can vary a bit with age and envirometal conditions so 6/12/18 months ago it might have read significantly different, higher. The Dyno Dynamics system uses a weather station to make corrections for different times of the year, this is also not adjustable on the digital software we use, removing a lot of 'human interference' which can occur with the older, analogue software (same graph style to the one above - i'm not saying that particular one has been tampered with btw, just stating the difference for people). We've ran our own cars at different times of the year, and also when we moved workshops, more so out of our own curiosity really and the machine gives out VERY comparable numbers. Proof of this was again shown in Lauren's car which made almost identical power to what it did nearly 2 years ago on the same machine These cars don't make huge peak power figures when naturally aspirated, gains are clear to see through the mid range and 'torque dip' area, drive ability is massively improved over stock. If people are chasing BHP/Pub numbers then I would suggest they look down the routes of forced induction to show huge gains 6 Keethos, KevinA, Foulsmell and 3 others reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gringosteve 213 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 Loving this post, good insight Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shiftspark 41 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 A great thread this and always lots of debate on rr figures but how much difference power wise does it take to show in lap times ? my experience would say very little around the 10-15 hp difference. I keep thinking that the £500+ cost of a map would be better off spent elsewhere to bring lap times down ie tyres,suspension set ups. Then theres not so much worrying if you have any issues around warranty work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinA 695 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 If you look at TSS results between stock class and mildly modified you get a good idea of lap time differences. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shiftspark 41 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 5 minutes ago, KevinA said: If you look at TSS results between stock class and mildly modified you get a good idea of lap time differences. I have but unless you know whats been done to the modified cars is difficult to see what mods work best. Cheers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinA 695 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 My mods normally equal 4-5secs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nicebiscuit 655 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 Mine Tomei de cat EL manifold, ARK DTS exhaust, Berk front pipe with sports cat, Cobra overpipe. Blitz panel filter and Fensport remap. Other 86 Stock. Now that's interesting. Good to see exactly the difference a set of mods make. As you say, good gains right the way through. Still a noticeable torque dip though. Is it possible to get rid of that without going forced induction? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lauren 2259 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 Lap times are far more complicated than that though. You can see where Kev and I have been quicker than far more powerful cars a lot of the time and also quicker than the forced induction times. Lap times depend far more on the driver and their ability etc. There's also the matter of suspension and setup, so way too many variables to focus on power modifications in isolation. In regard to the 'torque dip', I'm not sure why people worry about it. If you're driving quickly you are always above it. If you're not, you're below it most of the time. The only time I notice it a little is accelerating in 6th gear on the motorway, where it doesn't really matter that much. My mods are: Injen Induction kit. Full Milltek system, 2nd decat and over pipe. Then there's my suspension stuff and very light wheels. 2 Polishingpedlar and Foulsmell reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nicebiscuit 655 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 You can easily drive around it, that's for sure. The gear ratios will keep you neatly above it. But I don't want to be screaming around all the time - would be nice to have a bit more flexibility for - say - overtaking on the road. More to the point I'm just curious why it's there. Driven plenty of cars with vtec type stepped power delivery, but this ones quite unusual in being reasonably torquey low down, revvy at the top, but a bit flat in the middle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Camilz 15 Report post Posted November 13, 2015 a UEL manifold fixes the dip Share this post Link to post Share on other sites