Time to remap?

[Kodename47 446]

I believe both Rob and SpecK had them leak within a short period after install and I heard similar issues elsewhere. They all got replaced but it's not isolated so IMO I wouldn't get them. They aren't actually dampers either, but inserts which you have to cut open the stock struts and replace the innards.

The Bilsteins are relatively new, B6 for "standard" ride height and the B8 for lowered, although on your drop it seems that the recommendation is B6. The guys at Part-Box seem to do them, just over £600 a set. Always worth asking to see if Fensport or Abbey can get them too

[Lauren 2259]

I guess in terms of whether you fork out £2500 fitted on a coilover setup with EDFC Active Pro, is a totally personal choice. I've even retained the stock tyres after trying grippier tyres and not liking it. I like my cars to handle above everything else and it's a setup I've been happy with. I am now going to try Yoko Advan V105's but in stock sizes on my 8" rims to see how that goes. I'm doing it more out of interest to find better predictability (the progression of the Primacy tyre is lacking IMO) but I don't want to go up to 225's as I tried that with the V105's last time and felt it was a bit too grippy. 

 

Obviously different people want different things. I likely do more miles with a variation of different roads than anybody else in the club at present. I cover 30K miles a year, my car registered 1st Feb 13 has now done 68K. I drive around some pretty awful council estates in my job as a social worker, work away so cover motorway miles, compete in the sprint series and do big European tours. All of this means I have a lot of experience in how the car feels and handles. 

 

I've not even got round to remapping my car yet though, despite it being on the insurance since January! So it depends where your priorities lie. But I wouldn't look at just lowering springs, I think it's just not doing it properly. 

 

Also can we please use the correct terms. It's dampers not bloody shocks, that's what springs do! 

[S18 RSG 429]

I hate to repeat the same point again Lauren, but I really can't stand it it when people say you're not "doing it properly" by doing something other than what you think is best.

 

What exactly is "it" in that context?

 

If I want to build a car solely to race on a track, then I can understand how springs would not be "doing it properly".

 

If I only want to lower the car a fraction and have no regard for handling, then springs are definitely "doing it properly".

 

In my situation, I want to lower the car slightly, improve handling slightly and do so on a relative budget. Focusing on the budget part, spending £1000 on coilovers is not my idea of "doing it properly". 

 

Of course, we all have our opinions, and that's why we all have such different cars, but I don't think telling somebody they're doing their car wrong, just because they do it differently to you, is necessarily fair. There are a lot of people on this site, and in the car world in general that get just as much enjoyment out of their car which is lowered on springs, as you do with your multiple thousand pound setup.

 

Also, a damper's job is to absorb "shocks". A damper and a shock obsorber are the same thing.

[rob275 1817]

I believe both Rob and SpecK had them leak within a short period after install and I heard similar issues elsewhere. They all got replaced but it's not isolated so IMO I wouldn't get them. They aren't actually dampers either, but inserts which you have to cut open the stock struts and replace the innards.

The Bilsteins are relatively new, B6 for "standard" ride height and the B8 for lowered, although on your drop it seems that the recommendation is B6. The guys at Part-Box seem to do them, just over £600 a set. Always worth asking to see if Fensport or Abbey can get them too

 

I had one leaky damper when testing on fitting, but it was replaced under warranty by Koni. I do believe that Fensport now test every damper upon arrival to ensure they aren't leaking and Koni have increased their QC on the subject. As Steve says above, the fronts need cutting. There are better offerings out there, but that said, they were good for the price.

[Lauren 2259]

I really CBA to argue with you Ross. 

 

I don't think springs are doing it properly. But each to their own, it's fine. Some people are far more interested in looks and don't care about handling. From my experience of trying just lowered springs, I didn't think it offered any improvement over stock handling, but it's just my opinion, obviously go with what you are happy with. I only offered advice because you asked for it. 

 

Also springs absorb the shock. Dampers 'damp' that shock. Calling them 'shock absorbers' is poor American terminology. Anyone who works on suspension will use the correct terms, it is as simple as that.

[rob275 1817]

Your opinion though Lauren 

 

It's an opinionated subject, from Lauren's perspective it's not doing it properly because she would only be doing it for better handling as opposed to yourself who is going for aesthetics quite frankly. In which case, you're doing it properly for a reasonable price. 

 

Ultimately though, you're probably better going for a coilover setup as you can tweak the height then so in essence you could be better off. Don't do what I done and get springs and dampers then decide I wanted coilovers. You would end up wasting moneys! And i'm sure you will get the track day bug at some point and you'll be crying for more. So in that sense, Lauren has a point.

[Kodename47 446]

The car has coilovers as standard. So no-one is fitting coilovers, they are replacing their stock one with pre-done kits. Sorry, saying coilovers in that way is an annoying Americanism....

As for what's best, why can't you have a spring kit that can handle? The Litchfield kit was designed from a handling standpoint over a drop, as were the TRD/STi offerings due to the fact the drop wan't that large. There are also a couple of kits in the US that have been developed similarly and when mated to well spec'd dampers will equal any out of the box kits. In fact some of those are now being offered up as matched kits. Admittedly the stock dampers aren't of the same quality as some of the aftermarket ones, but they certainly aren't the worst ones about. A pre-done coilover kit may be the one of the easier ways, but it's definitely not the only way to improve the handling using the main suspension components.

[S18 RSG 429]

I really don't get where the sudden hostility came from haha.

 

I'm not arguing, Lauren is right in most of what she says, but I just don't feel she, or indeed anyone, has a right to say that someone is literally doing their car wrong, because it's not her way, that was my point.

 

It's just how a lot of online forums end up. There is always someone who has the money to spend on the best parts, that thinks everyone else is below them if they don't have those same parts. Fact is, everyone has different priorities. I don't consider making my car handle better than anyone elses a priority, because it gets driven on the road, and as I've said already, the GT86 was designed for a purpose, and it achieves that purpose very well. Making the car handle like it's a racing car takes it away from that purpose completely, whereas I'm looking to still maintain the design purpose of the car, but make it better, and more fun. I don't need to spend £1000 for that.

 

And as a final point on the dampers/shock absorbers point, I work with hydraulics and fluid process everyday, it's my job. I use the term dampers throughout my day and would say that I have grasped a decent understanding of the word. But even ignoring that, just by simply visiting the online stores of some of the highly respected suppliers we see advertising on this site, namely Amber Performance and Fensport, both refer to "dampers" as shock absorbers (just go to the suspension section of each site). So from that standpoint, I wouldn't refer to that term as, "poor", "incorrect", or "American", but I am a stickler for the facts.

[rob275 1817]

The car has coilovers as standard. So no-one is fitting coilovers, they are replacing their stock one with pre-done kits. Sorry, saying coilovers in that way is an annoying Americanism....

As for what's best, why can't you have a spring kit that can handle? The Litchfield kit was designed from a handling standpoint over a drop, as were the TRD/STi offerings due to the fact the drop wan't that large. There are also a couple of kits in the US that have been developed similarly and when mated to well spec'd dampers will equal any out of the box kits. In fact some of those are now being offered up as matched kits. Admittedly the stock dampers aren't of the same quality as some of the aftermarket ones, but they certainly aren't the worst ones about. A pre-done coilover kit may be the one of the easier ways, but it's definitely not the only way to improve the handling using the main suspension components.

 

Ok if you're going to be pedantic about it, I meant adjustable coilovers, but you knew I meant that anyway  

[Lauren 2259]

If I came across as hostile I'm sorry it wasn't intended. My car is setup for the road as I have already described at some length. It is in no way setup as a racing car.  I really think it's your intepretation and for some reason you seem to feel I'm putting you down. I do find it suprising though that someone will spend £20K or £30K on their car then want to modify it, but then want to skimp on parts. Just seems odd. 

 

I also think that you offer a debate but don't want to listen. That's fine but there's no point getting upset about it. My point is that just changing the springs won't be as effective as the setup I have suggested. You also seem to have a lot of preconceptions about how online forums. Referring to dampers as shock absorbers is poor, just because someone else does it, doesn't mean it's right. I'm not saying Fensport or Amber are poor, but they are incorrect simple as that. 

 

I talked about the Tein Flex Z because it isn't that expensive and you don't need the EDFC stuff. It has received rave reviews and I know a number of people who have changed out their lowered springs for such a setup and been very pleased with the results. 

 

I shall refrain from further debate. 

[KevinA 695]

Opinions are just that, a lot of people think my coilovers are cheaper and inferior to other brands but I am happy with the results they give me. I also had a professional driver take the car on circuit and complimented the set up. IMHO do what you feel is right and enjoy your car. There are a lot of people on here with good knowledge including Lauren who is very technical and a good driver also. Onwards and upwards we go.

[Tareim 343]

I'll add to the debate, I currently have STi pinks 15mm lowering springs on the car (before I bought it) and they aren't that great and will be swapping to a proper adjustable coilover setup to get the best out of the car

[S18 RSG 429]

Can't believe I had to turn my PC on at this time of night just to reply 

 

I'll begin by saying, I have listened to every point you've made, and have replied to, or made comment on what you've said in every post, so I clearly AM listening to your points. In fact, I would counter that argument of "not wanting to listen", back to yourself. I have made my intentions quite clear on several occasions, and given my reasoning for doing so. At no point have you offered any advice that helps me. All you have said is that I'm wrong, and your way is basically the only way, as well as told me why your way is right by explaining how, where and how often you drive your car. That's all great, and I'm sure something I could read in depth in a topic that you've started covering the matter (if such a thing exists). This is not that place. I asked for opinions, explained why I wasn't sold on your opinion, and expected some other reply than being told I'm wrong.

 

As everyone else has said, this whole debate is opinion based, and I've never said otherwise. Some people have agreed with me, some have agreed with you, some are in between and can see both perspectives. My issue isn't that someone has a different opinion than mine, my issue is that my opinion is being passed off as inferior, and wrong, just because it's different.

 

Also, the fact that so many assumptions are being made about me, by a senior member of the forum who should know better, when in reality, nobody here knows anything about me.

 

I worked damn hard for this car. I saved, I worked extra hours and I shopped around for a long time to get a good deal. As part of that saving, I also put aside a bit of money to replace parts that I would consider worthwhile replacing after reading so much about the car, so I find it very disrespectful to have, what was a big deal for me (buying this car) brushed off as if it's some sort of everyday thing. I didn't just "spend £20k or 30k" on the car, I worked hard and achieved a goal I set for myself (try to remember how it was for you growing up in your early 20's trying to afford a decent car).

 

I also hate the fact that, due to the above, I'm being told I'm "skimping" on parts. No. Unlike some people, I can't just empty thousands out of my account willy nilly on parts so I can turn my PC on and brag about how great my car is. I have to be realistic, and balance what I can afford with what I want to get out. If I want to make my car handle a little better, £1000 on coilovers won't have as good of an effect as spreading that money equally on suspension, tyres, stiffening, lightening etc. and that's a fact. If I had money to spend on coilovers, I'd have already got them. I'd probably already have the car supercharged with a RB body kit and painted matte purple or something also, but I don't, so please, don't tell me I'm "doing it wrong" just because I don't have the luxury that some people do.

 

And as a final thing before I just turn my PC off and be done with this forum altogether, please don't assume that because I'm new here, I'm new to online forums. I help to run an online car forum with a couple of hundred active members, and have been signed up to various car forums since before I could even drive, probably over 10 years. I have even designed, owned and ran my own forum (unrelated to cars) for a good period. My opinions of online forums are not based on "preconceptions", but experiences.

 

I came from a club which some of you may have heard of, called "Rebel Motorsport Club" (I have no issue in talking about the situation as none of them have time for people outside of their group anyway). There were multiple people on that site who acted like spoiled little brats on a school yard. If somebody bought something for their car, a week later someone would buy something better, and all the people like myself, my dad, and a few friends of ours who had little interest in this competition, were looked down upon. Almost never invited to events, and had our opinions on anything dismissed. The funny thing is, none of the people on this site ever took their car on a track. They spent tens of thousands of pounds on their cars, just to brag about them online and explain how great their car was to people at car shows.

 

When I join a forum and see someone say "don't do that, it's pointless, do this", rather than "if you have the budget, do this, if not, your best option for what you want is this", I can't help but recall that situation.

 

Now I can see that Lauren is clearly respected here by many people, from both a personality point of view and for her talent behind the wheel, so I'm sure I'm not getting the best side of her here and am more than happy to see that, but nothing gives her or anyone else the right to tell anyone that they're wrong because they can't afford to be as spendthrift as themselves.

 

I'm not even gonna get back into the other, completely pointless and rather pedantic discussion. I know I'm right, and I could write another 10 paragraphs explaining why, but at the end of the day, that's not what this topic was about, and quite frankly, proving that I understand a good part of how I make a living, just to prove someone else wrong on an online forum is not my intention. 

[rob275 1817]

I think you're taking what Lauren says a little to heart. She's already said she didn't mean to come across the way she had so just take it as advice and leave it as that. I'm not seeing the issue here 

[Lauren 2259]

I'm truly sorry if i offended you, I'm  not going to talk anymore about what I think is the more worthwhile option as I just don't want to cause any more issues. If I have come across badly, then I am very sorry for that too.

[Deacon 1357]

One thing to consider op is that several people have had springs and then ended up getting coilovers later. Obviously this then ends up being way more expensive overall.

Just saying as this is exactly what I did!

[Special K 442]

Interesting.... and I think a lot of us have been in the same boat, Ross..

 

'Adjustable' is the key word in regards to suspension. It's not only the ride height and stiffness it's also the capability to change the geometry. Both Lauren and I run the Tein EDFC Active systems and run with totally different settings on front and rear.. and that's down to preference, driving style and spring rates, it's nowt to do with fitness for purpose.

 

This flexibility is not something you get with the ubiquitous 'adjustable coilovers' and obviously comes at a price. Even so, our systems are not the all-singing version, which allows for separate bump/rebound settings.

 

My Koni's did not leak but I found them irritatingly difficult to change the rear shocks with their knurled nut system . . also, the ability to change the EDFC settings 'on the fly' is a huge benefit, in my view... think 'dry track, wet track'....

 

As far as manifolds are concerned I have tried three - a 'de-catted' prototype standard manifold engineered by Mark at Abbey (sold to knyghtrider, I believe), a stainless steel Hayward & Scott manifold (with hfc fitted after the overpipe) and the full AVO system when I went turbo.

 

I still have the H&S manifold which I am willing to let go for a ridiculously small amount of money, Ross.

 

However, I would ask whoever buys/ uses it undertakes to sell it on at cost if they decide to upgrade.. gives others a chance to try it..

 

Spec K

[S18 RSG 429]

Rob - The issue, as I stated, was more the fact that Lauren seemed to be making out that what I wanted to do was "wrong", just because it's not what she would do. At the end of the day, we are all in different situations and all have different priorities. As I've said multiple times, making my car handle really well isn't a priority. I like the way it handles, and if I could keep the character, but enhance it slightly with springs, bushes and ARBs as I did with my last car, then that suits me down to the ground. I don't care if someone else's car could beat mine around track, my intention isn't to make a race car, but to make a fun car, and fully adjustable, expensive coilovers aren't required for fun.

 

I'll also point out that I didn't ask for advice about coilovers vs springs. I said from the beginning what my intentions were, and without knowing my goals for the car, was told that I was wrong straight away. The closest I got to asking for advice was, "Maybe someone can try to convince me otherwise, but please try to avoid the typical forum opinions of "springs are pointless, coilovers or nothing", which I've already covered." Regarding the last bit, that's basically all that was said, even though I asked for people to avoid it.

 

Anyway, I'm not carrying on now. Wasn't my intention to start any drama here, just to get some advice as to when I should do each stage of modification, which I got, so thanks to everyone for that.

 

Spec K: Thanks for summing everything up in a much more meaningful way. You're exactly right. You and Lauren have setups which allows you to adjust your car's behaviour depending on where you're driving. Clearly for you two, spending all that money was worth it, as having that luxury was a priority for you. Adjustability and flexibility in suspension is not a priority for me. As I said, I've done the whole coilovers thing in the past, and found that I never made the most of them, so thought they were a waste of money for the kind of driving I do. Maybe at some point in the future I'll change my mind, but I can cross that bridge when I come to it. As of right now, I would rather NOT delay all my other plans for the car just for the sake of "maybe" changing my mind.

 

As for your manifold comments, I appreciate the feedback a lot. I have only ever taken my car to one place for exhaust work (Prospeed Exhausts in Cardiff). Charlie does amazing work. When I went to do the secondary decat (which he did for £100), he offered to do me a full 2.5" cat back system with twin 4.5" slash cut tailpipes, and some special design silencer that helps bring out the boxer burble (no idea, just what I can remember) for £450. He also said he could do me a UEL catted header for £550. He does UEL headers for various flat four engines quite often, and mentioned to me that I should do it, rather than the other way around.

 

For the above reasons, I've never bought a prebuilt exhaust, nor indeed any part of a prebuilt exhaust, as I just let Charlie do his thing, but I could be persuaded to change my mind when it comes to manifolds, as honestly, I don't really know where to begin.

[Tareim 343]

to get the boxer burble you will have to go UEL manifold, you can't get the boxer burble by modifying a silencer, and in my opinion it would be best to go for a known name with a good reputation as this is the most critical part of the exhaust system so needs to be done properly

[S18 RSG 429]

Yeah, I know a UEL manifold is required to get the true boxer sound, but he explained to me the design of this silencer and how it redirects air or some jargon. I don't know. But that's where he brought up the UEL manifold to me.

 

He said "I'll do this with the silencer which will give you a deeper exhaust note which will pop on the overrun a little and give it a bit more of a boxer burble, but if you want it to sound like a true boxer you need to go for a UEL manifold". Not word for word, but you get the idea.

 

He's done my last 4 cars, and almost every one of my friend's cars also and his work is always amazing. They have a fantastic reputation down these parts. But still, I kinda agree with you with regards to the manifold. Always thought it would be better to go for a prebuilt system, as if nothing else I get to hear people's opinions beforehand.

[Ztox 230]

I think I'm going to begrudgingly go UEL, from what I can see it'll sort out the torque dip a bit on the N/A car.

[S18 RSG 429]

I think I'm going to begrudgingly go UEL, from what I can see it'll sort out the torque dip a bit on the N/A car.

 

As far as I've seen, both UEL and EL will sort out the torque dip, with a remap. UEL just gives better sound and EL gives better power.

[Tareim 343]

As far as I've seen, both UEL and EL will sort out the torque dip, with a remap. UEL just gives better sound and EL gives better power.

 

UEL + remap gives better midrange whereas EL + remap will give more top end

[Church 209]

In most cases, not all. Aceheader provides very good midrange (& torque dip elimination) despite being EL. And remap, or ECU tune benefits all headers, no matter the type. Even more so, one can slightly rise performance even with everything intake/exhaust being stock.

[Kodename47 446]

I think I'm going to begrudgingly go UEL, from what I can see it'll sort out the torque dip a bit on the N/A car.

Just cos torque drops a little on most dyno charts doesn't mean it'll feel like the torque has fallen out the arse of the car. I bet that if you drove a car with any manifold with a torque dip better than the stock car you wouldn't notice it. Hell my car felt better just with a remap without any exhaust mods at all. The reason you feel it is because the torque drops at a rate that the bhp drops too for a brief period, if you eradicate that drop in horse power it'd make the difference.

I think some people worry way too much about dyno charts (and other stuff). If you don't want a "boxer" rumble, don't buy a UEL manifold