So.... talk manifolds to me

[rob275 1817]

If you boys can't create a separate thread to discuss this damn thermostat just agree to disagree  Back on topic please!

[Ade 517]

There is just not enough data available to prove it. For a start the mishimoto website is wrong. The OEM thermostat starts opening at 90C and fully open at 95C. I was seeing around 93C on track. 

It doesn't tell you anything about the operating temperature either. The double spring will likely give a progressive opening, rather than a linear response. At least with the Cosworth part it gives the correct information and tells you the operating temperature.

Directly from the Cosworth website:

• Cosworth Low Temp Thermostats compared to other brands have the ability to precisely control the flow of coolant when the valve opens.

• Inferior brands allow the coolant to surge thereby causing unstable temperatures and even temperature fluctuation that can cause severe engine damage and make it difficult to properly tune or calibrate the engine

•Cosworth opening starts at 76oC (169°F) and is fully open at 90oC - Engine running temperature is 80-82°C (176-180°F)

•OEM Opening starts at 90oC (194°F) and is fully open at 95oC- Engine running temperature is 90-92°C (194-198°F)

• Reduced operating temperature improves both volumetric efficiency and knock limit

For the sake of £20 i'd go with the one giving the correct information.

I doubt we will be able to agree on this, so lets just end it here. People can read these comments and make their own decision.

[Ade 517]

Back on topic, talking of cheap manifolds. 

https://www.powerflowexhausts.co.uk/toyota-gt86-and-brz-performance-manifold-with-sports-cats

£289 with a 200cel cat!

[S18 RSG 429]

15 minutes ago, Ade said:

Back on topic, talking of cheap manifolds. 

https://www.powerflowexhausts.co.uk/toyota-gt86-and-brz-performance-manifold-with-sports-cats

£289 with a 200cel cat!

I sent topgear (the manufacturer of the above part) an email asking for an explanation as to why it was so cheap, as I had heard rumors of them being the same spec as stock, and therefore providing no benefit. They completely ignored my email, and subsequently removed the manifold from their eBay store and website for a few days. I'm not sure if they're back to selling them now, or if they've sold them on to Powerflow, but doesn't bode well when they can't even answer simple questions about their own product.

[Ade 517]

Yes the primaries don't look particularly big so smaller piping could be part of the cost saving.  No mention of stainless steel either?

[S18 RSG 429]

Says on their website: 

"All Top Gear exhausts are made from 304 Grade Stainless Steel, which is the industry standard for lifetime guaranteed exhaust systems. All Top Gear fabricated exhausts (Excl. Manifolds, Catalytic Converters, Flexible Pipes, Valves) carry a Lifetime Guarantee. Both our Powerflow and Longlife dealer networks also provide industry-leading lifetime guarantees on custom-made exhausts."

However, the reason I emailed them is because they also make this:

https://www.topgear.co.uk/toyota-gt86-and-subaru-brz-manifold-with-sports-cats

It looks almost identical to the Japspeed manifold, and is more like the sort of price where it could be considered "cheap", rather than "too cheap". I asked them for the specs of both manifolds and to explain the price difference, but got ignored.

[long-gone 152]

Beat me to it on the topgear thing: click.

[Kodename47 446]

Top Gear? These are just one of many of the Chinese made versions.... want it even cheaper? Look no further: http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/gt86-header.html

[S18 RSG 429]

Top Gear actually make manifolds for some serious cars. Look on the Ferrari F430 owners club, hundreds of owners have Top Gear manifolds. Same story on the Corvette owners club, Porsche owners club and a few others I found during my research.

They're by no means cheap, Chinese garbage, just too cheap for anyone to trust.

[Kodename47 446]

17 minutes ago, S18 RSG said:

Top Gear actually make manifolds for some serious cars

They probably do, just not on this platform:

https://www.topgear.co.uk/toyota-gt86-and-subaru-brz-manifold-with-sports-cats

is definitely the same as

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Stainless-Steel-exhaust-header-manifold-for_60386035801.html?spm=a2700.7724857.29.172.gxQ8Z5

$64 + shipping if you request a sample

[S18 RSG 429]

Well, that one you linked is also remarkably similar to the Japspeed manifold, the dyno results of which I posted above. 

This suggests one of two things:

Either that $64 manifold is good for 220hp and 170lb/ft of torque and no torque dip;

Or, not everything that looks the same, is the same.

[Camilz 15]

Japspeed do a good angled 02 sensor spacer, Ive got one on my Borla UEL, so far no CELs hopefully itl stay that way until I can get it remapped  

[Ade 517]

I've just found a cosworth/nameless knock off for $500!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PLM-Power-Driven-Scion-FRS-Subaru-BRZ-2013-LONG-TUBE-HEADER-/141646400366

If it is identical that is a bargain!

[Kodename47 446]

11 minutes ago, Ade said:

I've just found a cosworth/nameless knock off for $500!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PLM-Power-Driven-Scion-FRS-Subaru-BRZ-2013-LONG-TUBE-HEADER-/141646400366

If it is identical that is a bargain!

I believe it's a copy of the original Nameless design.

Reviews:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86460

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88937

26 minutes ago, S18 RSG said:

Well, that one you linked is also remarkably similar to the Japspeed manifold, the dyno results of which I posted above. 

This suggests one of two things:

Either that $64 manifold is good for 220hp and 170lb/ft of torque and no torque dip;

Or, not everything that looks the same, is the same.

Yep, and I reckon that's what they sold. The exhausts can also be found on the website  The very cheap manifolds are barely an upgrade from stock, but may add power if the fitment and build quality is good and then hope the welds hold up over time. There seems to be very few knock offs of decent manifolds though, bar the PLM one above and one that looks similar to HKS. If you compare the cheap ones to the OEM manifold, the runner design looks very close.

[Rich 378]

Cosworth comes with ceramic coating though which adds a few hundred to the cost...

[Ade 517]

Just now, Rich said:

Cosworth comes with ceramic coating though which adds a few hundred to the cost...

Yep as discussed on the other forum, about £400 but still the Cosworth manifold is £1500 which is excessive given the gains. Same goes for the ACE in my opinion. ~£1400 with ceramic coating. fudge that. 

[Nicebiscuit 655]

Too many factors to give one answer to be honest.

Best for power (peak power anyway) in a non catted equal length manifold, but you'll need to spend a decent amount of money on a big secondary cat to pass MOT.

Best for torque is an unequal length manifold without a cat, but same problem.

This is my dilemma too. Personally after torque smoothing and to maximise the benefit of a remap rather than chasing peak power or noise.

So top of my list was decatted manifold but then retaining rest of the stock system but no idea whether stock second cat alone would pass MOT. I'd guess not otherwise why would Toyota bother strangling it with the primary cat as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kodename47 446]

3 minutes ago, Nicebiscuit said:

So top of my list was decatted manifold but then retaining rest of the stock system but no idea whether stock second cat alone would pass MOT. I'd guess not otherwise why would Toyota bother strangling it with the primary cat as well.

Worldwide emissions regs. The OEM cat in front pipe is good enough to pass MOT on it's own.

[Rich 378]

AFAIK either one of the OEM cats will pass an MOT alone. Both is probably an advantage during type approval, and potentially in places like California which have very strict emissions rules.

[Nicebiscuit 655]

Not sure if this is the right place or should start a new topic...

To get best NA performance (grunt=power+torque) what are the options/combinations?

Conditions:

1. Must be legal inc. pass MOT

2. Not offensively loud

3. Not just numbers at the expense of driveability, throttle response &/or reliability

4. Cost no more than £1.50

Handling/stopping to come later.

So back to your shopping list. My requirements are similar (though doing handling first )

And my answer so far (as I don't want to announce my arrival to the whole neighbourhood) is decent decatted manifold, leave rest of system as is and remap that.

And most likely at Tuning Developments, because a) they're local they make decent hot dogs and c) their manifold supplier is top notch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ade 517]

Even cheaper de cat manifold popped up for £199.99!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toyota-GT86-2-0L-Stainless-Steel-4-1-Exhaust-Manifold-Header-Decat-/291712537663?hash=item43eb6c143f:g:xG4AAOSwezVWvfnA

 

[Merich22 10]

8 minutes ago, Ade said:

Even cheaper de cat manifold popped up for £199.99!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toyota-GT86-2-0L-Stainless-Steel-4-1-Exhaust-Manifold-Header-Decat-/291712537663?hash=item43eb6c143f:g:xG4AAOSwezVWvfnA

 

I seen this the other week, opinions? Think it'll do the job, or be awful?

[Ade 517]

Its a 4-1 rather than 4-2-1 so might sacrifice a little low end for high end torque.

No cat will help flow but pipes are same as stock.

[S18 RSG 429]

As Ade said, it will probably have the same effect as decatting the stock manifold. Undoubtedly will have performance benefits due to the removal of the cat, but nowhere near the gains seen from a reputable manifold I would imagine.

[Merich22 10]

So probably better to hold off and get a Tomei or Borla?