So.... talk manifolds to me

[Kodename47 446]

Just now, Ade said:

As I said they might be the same, but I wouldn't take the risk for a sake of £20. 

The Fanboi-ism is strong in this one.....

I agree that a £5 thermostat isn't going to cut the mustard, but I compared operating specs to the Cosworth..... Identical. We all know that Cosworth apply a name tax, that is all.

[S18 RSG 429]

4 minutes ago, Ade said:

A thermostat is not just a thermostat! 

Transient response one important part. You don't want the thing over cooling or worse oscillating trying to find an equilibrium point.

As I said they might be the same, but I wouldn't take the risk for a sake of £20. 

The Mishimoto stuff seems good quality though. The sandwich plate I have is very well machined. 

 

Transient response is something we worry about on PID loop control of sensitive electrical equipment, it's not something that's going to affect a cars' cooling system. A well designed thermostat (which I'm sure both Cosworth and Mishimoto parts are) is not going to be switching on and off every second trying to maintain temperature.

Anyway, we were talking manifolds, not thermostats

[Ade 517]

11 minutes ago, knightryder said:

The Fanboi-ism is strong in this one.....

I agree that a £5 thermostat isn't going to cut the mustard, but I compared operating specs to the Cosworth..... Identical. We all know that Cosworth apply a name tax, that is all.

Where did you get the transient response specifications? I couldnt find them anywhere.

If you look at the mishimoto themrostat install video on youtube you will see it does have the double spring. The rallysport cosworth unboxing show it to be a single spring item as per the pics I posted up

 

 

 

[AJ124 118]

I have the Tomei UEL catless, can defiantly feel a bit more torque in the dip and then there is the noise . The car needs a map to make the most of it and will be done in the near future. 

One thing to bear in mind if you go catless manifold before a map is, you will get a EML if you don't use a spacer on the second lambda sensor. I knew it might happen but took a chance and 200 miles later it pinged up, bought a £10 spacer cleared the code and not had it come back in 2,000+ miles.

[Ade 517]

10 minutes ago, S18 RSG said:

Transient response is something we worry about on PID loop control of sensitive electrical equipment, it's not something that's going to affect a cars' cooling system. A well designed thermostat (which I'm sure both Cosworth and Mishimoto parts are) is not going to be switching on and off every second trying to maintain temperature.

Anyway, we were talking manifolds, not thermostats

It doesn't switch on and off it start opening at 76C and fully open at 90C

Its how the thermostat reacts to temperature changes. If it opens too much when it detects heat, it can over cool. Then if it closes too much and under cools and so on. Oscillation. 

Fair point back on topic

 

[Rich 378]

I have a 1320 performance UEL header and overpipe waiting to be fitted this weekend. It seemed like the best bang for buck of the catless UEL headers. Even with the weak pound against the dollar it was still much cheaper than anything available here (under £500 landed) and less than half the price of the ACE.

In terms of noise and power gains, I'll have to see once I get it on a dyno. I mainly went UEL for the sound and for reduction in torque dip; I'm less bothered about a couple of hp either way right at the top end.

[S18 RSG 429]

11 minutes ago, Rich said:

I have a 1320 performance UEL header and overpipe waiting to be fitted this weekend. It seemed like the best bang for buck of the catless UEL headers. Even with the weak pound against the dollar it was still much cheaper than anything available here (under £500 landed) and less than half the price of the ACE.

In terms of noise and power gains, I'll have to see once I get it on a dyno. I mainly went UEL for the sound and for reduction in torque dip; I'm less bothered about a couple of hp either way right at the top end.

There are actually quite a few options in this country, even some catted options, with overpipes for under £500.

I think a lot of people are just too nervous to try them as they seem TOO cheap. The Japspeed manifold comes to mind. It's £425 for their catted equal length manifold and overpipe combo, but I can't say I've seen anyone try it yet.

[Ade 517]

TBH I think the 1320 looks decent. Primaries are a good diameter and length wise they are okay. It'll be on my list when my stock manifold pops. I'd think about ceramic coating it though if you lose the stock heat shield. 

[Deacon 1357]

Do need to be careful with manifolds though - having seen the dyno plots for one of the hayward and scott ones it actually lost power and torque across the board compared to stock.

 

I'd only put on something that's shown proven gains like the ACE, Tomei or HKS. I'm very interested to see the results of the 1320 too.

[S18 RSG 429]

1 minute ago, Deacon said:

Do need to be careful with manifolds though - having seen the dyno plots for one of the hayward and scott ones it actually lost power and torque across the board compared to stock.

 

I'd only put on something that's shown proven gains like the ACE, Tomei or HKS. I'm very interested to see the results of the 1320 too.

Well even the cheap Japspeed manifold showed impressive numbers on the dyno, albeit they are from Japspeed themselves. They made 225hp and 176lb/ft of torque from their decat manifold, decat front pipe and cat back, and 220hp and 167lb/ft with their catted manifold, catted front pipe and catback.

Bearing in mind the catted manifold with overpipe is £425, and decat manfiold is £340.

Yet still nobody seems to trust them.

[Ade 517]

1 minute ago, S18 RSG said:

Well even the cheap Japspeed manifold showed impressive numbers on the dyno, albeit they are from Japspeed themselves. They made 225hp and 176lb/ft of torque from their decat manifold, decat front pipe and cat back, and 220hp and 167lb/ft with their catted manifold, catted front pipe and catback.

Bearing in mind the catted manifold with overpipe is £425, and decat manfiold is £340.

Yet still nobody seems to trust them.

What was power like before all the mods? 

[S18 RSG 429]

Just now, Ade said:

What was power like before all the mods? 

Stock car graph:

 

After manifold, exhaust, air filter and map:

[Minion 132]

I have the Japspeed manifold which I cannot fault good noise, good performance gains and for the money it also is pretty good quality. Also it's nice and light so for the money you cant go wrong.

[S18 RSG 429]

Just now, Minion said:

I have the Japspeed manifold which I cannot fault good noise, good performance gains and for the money it also is pretty good quality. Also it's nice and light so for the money you cant go wrong.

Catted or decat? And with or without their overpipe?

[AJ124 118]

Based on my experience with the Japspeed cat back I have I would not run a manifold from them if it's the same quality.

[long-gone 152]

43 minutes ago, S18 RSG said:

Stock car graph:

 

After manifold, exhaust, air filter and map:

Interesting the 'after' figure is up to 10C cooler, that'd help a bit.

[S18 RSG 429]

2 minutes ago, daidaiiro said:

Interesting the 'after' figure is ambient 10C cooler, that'd help a bit.

I think that's got more to do with the fact that they bought the car in late 2014 (summer) and developed the parts over the winter, so when they tested on the dyno second time, it was February 2015. Sure, it would have helped, but only small amounts.

They have a timeline of this car on their website I'm pretty sure.

[STEVO9000 54]

2 hours ago, knightryder said:

Make sure you get it coated, the up and over manifolds introduce a fair amount of heat into the bay.

I plan on having a good discussion with TD at their open day on my options. Not sure how much ceramic coating costs these days.

[Rich 378]

You're looking at around £400 for a manifold. It's not cheap!

[Minion 132]

1 hour ago, S18 RSG said:

Catted or decat? And with or without their overpipe?

Decat without overpipe as I have a cobra secondary decat & overpipe

[Kodename47 446]

2 hours ago, Ade said:

Where did you get the transient response specifications? I couldnt find them anywhere.

This?

The Mishimoto racing thermostat for Scion FR-S and Subaru BRZ allows coolant to flow through the radiator at lower temperatures, beginning to open at 76 degress celsius and full open at 90 degC. OEM activation temperature is 96 degC on the FR-S and BRZ. This thermostat is a great idea for FR-S and BRZ when used on track. This Mishimoto racing thermostat is covered by Mishimoto's lifetime warranty.

[Ade 517]

1 minute ago, knightryder said:

This?

The Mishimoto racing thermostat for Scion FR-S and Subaru BRZ allows coolant to flow through the radiator at lower temperatures, beginning to open at 76 degress celsius and full open at 90 degC. OEM activation temperature is 96 degC on the FR-S and BRZ. This thermostat is a great idea for FR-S and BRZ when used on track. This Mishimoto racing thermostat is covered by Mishimoto's lifetime warranty.

That tells you nothing other than the temp it starts to open and temp it is fully open.

Lets say its partially open at 80C and you start driving rapidly generating a lot of heat. If the thermostat opens too much it can over compensate and drop temps rather than regulating them. You end up with some oscillation as it opens and closes too much and not regulating the temp very well.

A good thermostat will be specifically matched to the coolant system to avoid this issue. I suspect the Mishimoto one is generic and the Cosworth one is better calibrated to work with the FA20. But that is just an assumption. Only way we'll really know is get them both on a test bed and its not really going to happen.

 

[S18 RSG 429]

37 minutes ago, Ade said:

That tells you nothing other than the temp it starts to open and temp it is fully open.

Lets say its partially open at 80C and you start driving rapidly generating a lot of heat. If the thermostat opens too much it can over compensate and drop temps rather than regulating them. You end up with some oscillation as it opens and closes too much and not regulating the temp very well.

A good thermostat will be specifically matched to the coolant system to avoid this issue. I suspect the Mishimoto one is generic and the Cosworth one is better calibrated to work with the FA20. But that is just an assumption. Only way we'll really know is get them both on a test bed and its not really going to happen.

 

This is what I was meaning by how comparably irrelevant it is on a cooling system, but maybe I'll explain a little more.

For ease of calculations, let's consider a 10C differential between operational trigger and fully open, so the trigger (for this example) is 80C and the fully open is 90C.

At 81C, you could expect the thermostat to be 10% open, at 85C, 50% open, and 90C 100% open. If, as you say, the thermostat opens "too much" and therefore "overcools", (let's say it's 20% open at 81C), then all that means is the thermostat will be open for half as much time before the temperature regulates back at 80C.

Where you have a point, is "undercooling", but let's say that at 85C, the thermostat is open 25% rather than 50%, the temperature will continue to rise to 90C, at which point the thermostat is fully open and the cooling system is in max effect. At 100% open, both thermostats will be doing the same job.

When it boils down to it, transient response is just the ability for the thermostat to react to change in temperature. Temperature isn't going to fluctuate quickly enough for the thermostats transient response to be the bottleneck. There are multiple other parts of the cooling system that will create the bottleneck before a thermostat.

[Ade 517]

This isnt the place to get into it but the stability of the thermostat does make a difference and that's my reason for paying an extra £20 for the Cosworth part.

But i'm also a fan boy  (I like to think for good reason)

 

 

 

[Kodename47 446]

1 hour ago, Ade said:

I suspect the Mishimoto one is generic

It has an "BRZ" specific part number (MMTS-BRZ-13) and lists the GT86 and BRZ as the only compatible vehicles. Over a 14C opening range I cannot see, unless it's made of butter, how this wouldn't do the job perfectly. It even has a lifetime warranty