Water Methanol Injection discussion

[rob275 1817]

Mark, what's going on? Giving james more power than me before meth and he has an auto. Lets fix this

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

After with water meth.

In my opinion I'm making power more torque whilst being more efficient, safer and having much lower peak iat (intake air temps) by 15 degrees. So in short I can run more timing which equals more boost then equals more wheel power.

So in writing I've upped wheel horse power by 16whp and torque by 11lbs ft on the wheel. So that's about or over 25-28bhp fly wheel. Please wait to iat data that's the big one! More power than most manuals on a 75mm pulley and maybe the most powerful sprintex auto.

[rob275 1817]

Aside from getting neckache reading it, looks promising

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Thanks rob. Wait till you see the iat data. Best part is look at my new torque curve, well up from no water meth. Pulls hard in any gear. Its not just the kit its how mark at abbey tuned it! All the kit does is open new doors for professional tuners to extract safer performance.

[Lauren 2259]

It's good to see you have a gain, though a small one, at around 10% or so. 

 

I guess you should think about shortening your final drive as the auto gearing is a tad intergalactic. 

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Thanks Lauren, but personally its a decent gain as you certainly feel it behind the wheel. There is so much more scope here. Anyway the power gains is only a bonus, and looking at that alone is missing the point. its about consistent efficient power all All I need to do is pay an extra fiver to my full tank of fuel thats it.thanks for the advice on my final drive by the way will look into that one for the future.

[Lauren 2259]

Changing the final drive made a fair old difference to Keith's car. 

[Lauren 2259]

I would add that given the setup without water/methanol doesn't have any issues, then the only point of adding water/methanol injection is the power increase. 

 

However, having said that for about £500 for buying fitting and mapping, if that's about right is not bad for that power increase. It's somewhere in the region of the increase you might see from remapping an NA and people who have done that say it's worth doing. Obviously you're going to need to start looking for special offers on antifreeze.

[rob275 1817]

Depends, i've seen hot temperatures on prolonged track use this summer from my sprintex. If you don't want to have to lay off a few laps to stay cool then this is a potential option of keeping cooler. Do I see my temperatures as an issue? Not particularly, but I will continue to monitor them and there may be other solutions for keeping temperatures a little lower if need be. But the weather is cooling down now, wont be able to monitor it more until a heatwave lol.

 

I guess it all depends on how you look at the application, James wanter to mainly lower his temperatures and keep them consistent. I will assume this has worked though not seeing any figures yet. Power increase is a cherry on top in this scenario. 

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

In a nut shell rob. As they are the out put is extremely healthy for a auto car. If I wanted more out right power I could of pushed mark to put on a smaller pulley. Though he said I'm making healthy boost as it is and don't need it. Though you can imagine the outcome if I did. Right now I'm very happy with the car, with lower psi tires and my new dampers I grip much better and go around corners like a purse snatcher hehe.

Here's the best way to look at my new found wheel power. All auto car.

Supercharging a stock auto car with only a filter keeping all cats in will see u at 210whp.

Adding a de cat manifold and a HFC 200 cell front pipe with full premium exhaust will see you to 222whp.

Adding a water meth system will see you 16-17 whp.

All numbers off dynos but another cars figures will vary.

All are done in stages and a must to get the best gains. Just put this up to get a idea and concept for people to see the stages of how we get extra power. After all that's why we have this forum, to share info.

With this I can see how a water meth kit is a viable option to gains and bang for buck. £200-300 for the kit of the shelf and fit it yourself. Needs mapping then a few quid on top of when you fill up with fuel. Don't forget you can run 100% water with gains but of course less. Water is free.. ; ) I know some one who is going to fit a kit to his eight six and run just water 1st. I'm intrigued at the data. Can't wait.

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

Well we now have data to prove that water/meth injection works .

 

below is a datalog from the Stock ECU (tuned with EcuTek) the IAT on the SC cars is after the SC so we get a true IAT figure.

 

 

We also see a rise in boost pressure due to the water/meths injection helping make the Sprintex SC more efficent.

 

all in all it works well , we have some ideas to make the set up even more usable y switching the water injection and and off via map switching and when the liquid level drops it will switch the map as well.

[griffinnn 11]

I have trouble reading dynos as it is but sideways is murder lol. The temp readings speak for themselves, very cool and congrats to chosenman!

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

I have trouble reading dynos as it is but sideways is murder lol. The temp readings speak for themselves, very cool and congrats to chosenman!

Thanks Griff. I was 100% confident with the kit and marks abilities to tune it. Marks graph does say it all. Its a massive difference in iat temps all the whole proven its more efficient as the water meth produces a seal within the supercharger. All this while the water steam cleans you engine. I'm still in awe of the capabilities as this is only the first attempt I'm sure there is much more tinkering to do as mark said and possibly more much more gains in the future.

[Kodename47 446]

DIY... you can do your own kit for well under £200 I reckon:

http://www.turbomirage.com/water-alcohol-injection-parts-list.html

Using ECUtek and custom maps, it would be easy to reuse the CPC solenoid (like the turbo boys do for EBC) for pump and spray control and re-asign one of the sensors as an ECUtek input for low levels as Mark said - you could even get it to flash a CEL to let you know. Simple to have it work on a dedicated map mode and at certain conditions etc, not necessarily boost but RPM/load triggers instead.

The basic system:

Just no need for a master/presure switch etc

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

DIY... you can do your own kit for well under £200 I reckon:

http://www.turbomirage.com/water-alcohol-injection-parts-list.html

Using ECUtek and custom maps, it would be easy to reuse the CPC solenoid (like the turbo boys do for EBC) for pump and spray control and re-asign one of the sensors as an ECUtek input for low levels as Mark said - you could even get it to flash a CEL to let you know. Simple to have it work on a dedicated map mode and at certain conditions etc, not necessarily boost but RPM/load triggers instead.

The basic system:

Just no need for a master/presure switch etc

Looks promising Steve. You going for it?

I'm just on a simple actuated set up. Via boost pressure I spray at 6psi and I'm then mapped around it. Will test and adjust once mark has completed his r & d, he will let me know I'm sure.

If you need to know anything about my kit and how I'm running it let me know. As nozzle and pump pressure for this set up is not what you might think mate!

The kits don't have solenoids as they are only required when placing a nozzle post TB and the vacuum is over 20psi, the pump controls flow via PWM. you need a pump that can supply over 100psi pressure for the nozzle required, hence why mine is 250psi. Im going progressive either via the Devilsown controller or via ecu if it can do PWM so you can run a even bigger nozzle. All depends on what mark says.

[Kodename47 446]

I could be half tempted by a water only solution purely for inlet temps, but it will need a decent setup time which I don't really have at the moment. A DIY kit does kind of interest me just because I like tinkering. I would be looking at full ECUtek integration to ensure a fully "smart" setup.

I would have thought that to have a variable setup you would need an injection solenoid as trying to vary output off the pump alone could be an issue? Hence why standard injectors are solenoid activated. I don't see any reason why you couldn't have an IPW setup from the CPC output. If you remove the CPC it also opens up an input signal source, one of 2 that can be used easily by ECUtek (the other being the rear O2 connection).

Having a fully ECUtek controlled setup allows for multiple triggers, off hand any useful ones:

- Boost/VE (SD)

- Intake Temps

- TPS

As I'd use it just for cooling purposes to improve the SC efficiency, you could get it to only become active when ACTs go over a certain temperature and throttle/boost is over a set percentage. That way you have an efficient system too that's not active when you don't need it, even under boost.

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

I could be half tempted by a water only solution purely for inlet temps, but it will need a decent setup time which I don't really have at the moment. A DIY kit does kind of interest me just because I like tinkering. I would be looking at full ECUtek integration to ensure a fully "smart" setup.

I would have thought that to have a variable setup you would need an injection solenoid as trying to vary output off the pump alone could be an issue? Hence why standard injectors are solenoid activated. I don't see any reason why you couldn't have an IPW setup from the CPC output. If you remove the CPC it also opens up an input signal source, one of 2 that can be used easily by ECUtek (the other being the rear O2 connection).

Having a fully ECUtek controlled setup allows for multiple triggers, off hand any useful ones:

- Boost/VE (SD)

- Intake Temps

- TPS

As I'd use it just for cooling purposes to improve the SC efficiency, you could get it to only become active when ACTs go over a certain temperature and throttle/boost is over a set percentage. That way you have an efficient system too that's not active when you don't need it, even under boost.

Steve, None of the progressive systems from Devilsown use a solenoid unless the nozzle is being mounted post TB like in direct port and a Check valve is not up to the job because of the high vacuum. The controllers like most of all the others on the market control flow by controlling the pump. Boost is by far the most popular because as soon as you bring IAT's into the mix then as your shooting for as low as poss for the most gains the kit is going to be on all the time anyways and seeing as temp rises naturally with boost it seems logical to control the kit via boost.

Also in case you do change your mind in the future to run a water meth mix make sure the kit you buy is 100% methanol compatible if not pumps tanks and line pack in quick!

Look at methanol kits from devils own, aem, snow and aqua mist to name but a few. Only reason I went with Devilsown is because they make the best nozzles and pumps. As was what the yanks said ; ).

Buy a kit fit it yourself then get abbey to map it as they have the knowledge in this dept now.

[Kodename47 446]

My point is that if it's cold enough to not need it then it won't use it. You could have a truely well thought out solution, its not a case of IAT OR boost OR whatever, you could set up custom maps on whatever parameters you want and a combination of the lot. If you can control the pump, you could have a real 3D spray map as well.

 

For example you could have it do all of this:

An ACT of over 45C the spray would be on if TPS over 35%

Spray is on always over 5000RPM

Spray comes on 3500RPM+ if ACT is over 40C

 

Again this is just for cooling purposes, although it would be possible to have timing maps running simultaneously for WMI on the same setup. The ECUtek custom maps are pretty powerful And that could be enabled on one mapswitch mode, no need to flick a switch or any extra wiring in the cabin.

[Quixote 35]

Nice to see the positive results , interesting to hear that you get more boost too - definitely a nice side effect

 

I like the idea of switchable maps especially if you wanted a water map for road use and a meth map for track

 

PS I love your artwork Steve 

[Sideways? 33]

*deletes unhelpful comment about "efficient", "safer", "engine cleaning"*

 

Congratulations Chosenman007! You have a more powerful car, a reasonable gain for a reasonable cost and the graphs to prove it, excellent job, well done for taking the plunge with this unknown, untried, untested technology!

 

It seems this whole saga has been a learning curve for everyone, thank you for investing your time and money in our education, now we know who to turn to if we want to get just a bit more power out of our FI cars    Meanwhile, I'm going to stay NA, for a number of reasons, but I'm glad someone is doing something a bit "alternative" to the Norm... 

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Your welcome Quixote and sideways means a lot guys.

I knew the tech was proven on every other aspect of car tuning. Until myself it has only been run on scion frs's. Not u.k based cars so obviously I was nervous how the fa20 engine would respond, but as you can see through the data which was done by one of the top tuners in the u.k (abbey Motorsport) it works extremely well. I'm glad its all over now if I'm honest. Now I've shared my r n d everyone else can utilise this tech to if they decide to get sprintex kits from abbey, maybe abbey might do package deals, sprintex plus water injection : )

Its all about fine tuning between myself, mark at abbey Motorsport and Bruce from devils own. Don't forget from the first attempt at tuning this tech my car has become the most powerful auto sprintex car and possibly one of the most powerful sprintex cars on a stock 75mm pulley manual or auto. All whilst being more effient, reliable, cooler and cleaner. So you can see the potential for manual cars. I hate to imagine this set up on a 355 sprintex kit. The results would be astounding.

With a progressive controller either done via ecutek CPU or a devils own kit I'm sure we can get better figures yet to come.

One for you Steve, I think your approach if viable and feasible and will work. Glad to see another alternative if you fit it that way. : )