CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Griff the reasons for pre s.c injection are all above. Most efficient way mate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GT86Jay 202 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Griff the reasons for pre s.c injection are all above. Most efficient way mate. Data and evidence backup? I should think part of it is to do with the ease of install. Sprintex SC would be far easier to inject before rather than after per cylinder. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rob275 1817 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Griff the reasons for pre s.c injection are all above. Most efficient way mate. It doesn't necessarily say it's the most efficient, it just states it's perfectly feasible Logic states you should cool at the hottest point to get the most reduction in heat though of course it's not always possible. Surely you agree with that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
griffinnn 11 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Aye sorry i didn't refresh when i got back from lunch. I also didn't consider the cooling effect of the meth/water on the SC's internals, which is also another good point. Starting to come round to meths = good for lowering temps. But then again, was this ever a debate? We are agreed that it is good for lowering the temp of the air going into the engine? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rob275 1817 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 I think the main debate is, "is it really worth the hassle?" but it's all preference. The temps have been reduced, but how much of a benefit it currently gives is unknown and will be until the end of the month. For James, he's happy to fill it up and pay for it so it's worth it and he's got lower temps, and potentially more consistent. But cooling post charge would in theory see cooler temps. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 JAy:- yes you are right Jay as we've both said one is ease, but also as ive already said Direct port and Pre charger (need both for best results) is overkill on a 300bhp 2.0, especially when great gains can be had from just Pre charger (look at my charge temp drops), obviously more data will come from MArk on my Remap. Personally rob I don't see the hassle. You fill up with fuel you pour in your screen wash. That's is no fuss. If you drive normally ie to work switch it off. On way way home when you fancy a trashing it or racing switch it on for full power all the time. End of the day the mix is the same price of a pint of premium beer. Rather have meth than a pint Lol well not the one ; ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
griffinnn 11 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 I think the main debate is, "is it really worth the hassle?" but it's all preference. The temps have been reduced, but how much of a benefit it currently gives is unknown and will be until the end of the month. For James, he's happy to fill it up and pay for it so it's worth it and he's got lower temps, and potentially more consistent. But cooling post charge would in theory see cooler temps. It's that bit i can't get my head round. Why would they do it pre SC if they could get it cooler after the SC and avoid all the questions of what wear/tear effects would have on the internals of the SC. It would seem a no brainer to move the injection to post SC if the gains/temps were better and would mean they don't have to answer all the questions about spraying meths into the SC? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rob275 1817 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Because as James said above, it costs a lot more, more time consuming and fiddly. Plus even distribution of the spray can be an issue it seems. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 I agree with your logic rob you are totally right. But on our power out puts just not feasible having more nozzles.as Bruce told me its over kill. If I had 400 fly then maybe. All I need is to cool the temps charger and the rest while boosting octane. This set up does that adequately. But maybe I get get better results if I went post charger but its just not worth it in our applications Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Griff this shoukd help explain. They don't do post charger as has been said because 1) only way to get even distribution is direct port (expensive and overkill really) 2) a lot hard more expensive to install 3) you would still have a very very hot charger heating up a engine and laminova not being cooled, so post charger by itself won't give better results. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
griffinnn 11 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Because as James said above, it costs a lot more, more time consuming and fiddly. Plus even distribution of the spray can be an issue it seems. Ok got ya, re-read that and understood. I agree with your logic rob you are totally right. But on our power out puts just not feasible having more nozzles.as Bruce told me its over kill. If I had 400 fly then maybe. All I need is to cool the temps charger and the rest while boosting octane. This set up does that adequately. But maybe I get get better results if I went post charger but its just not worth it in our applications Cool, so for the power you are making the pre SC spray is enough, i can dig that! So the only question that remains is does it make any more power? Which i guess is where the dynos will come in Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Yes Griff mapping to come. But think of it as no lose is a gain. And any power you do make is a mega bonus. Let's say you have 250 whp. With meth you will always have that or there abouts. No heat soak. ECU won't retard timing due to heat or hot weather. Any weather any time you go your dyno run power. No meth you could lose (a guess) 15bhp or more due to heat soak. Now as your video says with such colder temps you can map for advance timing to produce more power more boost safer. Let's heat on charger and internal better. So what ever I can Max out at say for argument sake 40bhp I will map for 30bhp so I'm still safe. There are cons. Make sure if you select your meth map (map 3 for me) you have you meth switched on. Also make sure your topped up. But because it comes with a float switch in the tank I know when I'm down to a quarter tank as the green led will light up. That's is. For a expensive pint you got a more efficient motor and more power if any. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GT86Jay 202 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Yes Griff mapping to come. But think of it as no lose is a gain. And any power you do make is a mega bonus. Let's say you have 250 whp. With meth you will always have that or there abouts. No heat soak. ECU won't retard timing due to heat or hot weather. Any weather any time you go your dyno run power. No meth you could lose (a guess) 15bhp or more due to heat soak. But have you ever experience knock or ignition timing issues without meth? I doubt you'd loose 15bhp just because you're running a little hotter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Jay yes I've not that's because I'm mapped for high temps and with safety measures in place. For an accurate number I will have to ask mark at what charge temp does the timing pull back at and how much does he reckon it loses. Whether its 1-30 bhp its a loss jay. And more the hotter you get. But as a package the sprintex from abbey is a superb package and mapped perfectly hence no knock or detonation as its mapped safe for the temps. There is no issues with it at all. Im just stopping timing being pulled on hot temps is all. Obviously if you lift thoses safety measures its bad news jay. But to get more benefits than I already have on meth certain safety parameters can change. Just like on a pump gas / e85 blend. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rob275 1817 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 I've seen temps of 69 degrees with no issues or noticeable affect on power. This was on a humid day, and pushing very hard on track. You wouldn't get near that on road though, if you do, you're running from something and should get nicked I honestly feel the mid 50's being seen is perfectly fine. Still, will be interesting to see if you make anymore or gain some consistency from all this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 I've seen temps of 69 degrees with no issues or noticeable affect on power. This was on a humid day, and pushing very hard on track. You wouldn't get near that on road though, if you do, you're running from something and should get nicked I honestly feel the mid 50's being seen is perfectly fine. Still, will be interesting to see if you make anymore or gain some consistency from all this. Totally rob my post on top states this. Its fine as it is. But maybe you hit timing retard and would you do another ten laps no stop as hard? The meth will help AIT and oil temps for your entry in to btcc after your indulged racing at TSS ; ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GT86Jay 202 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Totally rob my post on top states this. Its fine as it is. But maybe you hit timing retard and would you do another ten laps no stop as hard? Slow down for half a lap and have a cool off period. I'm sure brakes would be an issue before serious knock?.... None of us are running a serious full blown track car. We can afford half a lap cool off. Other issues will be present before serious knock if you're pushing that hard on track. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Slow down for half a lap and have a cool off period. I'm sure brakes would be an issue before serious knock?.... None of us are running a serious full blown track car. We can afford half a lap cool off. Other issues will be present before serious knock if you're pushing that hard on track. Meth no cool off. Brake pads cheap. Engine not. Rob I hit 64 degree on road with out meth. With 51 degree then right down to 38 within a few seconds 1 griffinnn reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rob275 1817 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 To be fair, I don't see it an issue. It's at the sort of 20minute mark that I hit that temp, and in all honesty, even 15minutes is enough on track at any one time so it's not an issue. Just laying off the boost and letting some cool air run through brings it down after a lap or two anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rob275 1817 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Meth no cool off. Brake pads cheap. Engine not. I do not comprehend? Were you intentionally trying to come accross as a caveman then? haha 1 griffinnn reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GT86Jay 202 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Meth no cool off. Brake pads cheap. Engine not. Brake pads cheap - fair enough. but i'd rather not put my car through a wall due to not slowing down on the end of a long straight. 1 KevinA reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 I do not comprehend? Were you intentionally trying to come accross as a caveman then? haha me Tarzan you Jane hehehe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 End of the day happy with it mate your happy without. Its like beer or wine both get you pissed choose your poison ; ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rob275 1817 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Cider for me lately... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GT86Jay 202 Report post Posted August 11, 2014 Cider for me lately... More of a fruit beer for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
