GT86Jay 202 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 Also is your IAT before or after where the Methanol is Injected? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rob275 1817 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 Also is your IAT before or after where the Methanol is Injected? After, it's after the charge. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 Ermm 1st question has been answered way above. If you google methanol injection science will say cooler is better. FACT! IAT is after the where the water/meth is injected. So its real world data. Paper data as I've stated numerous times is to follow. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GT86Jay 202 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 Paper data as I've stated numerous times is to follow. Let's wait and see the new data then. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 Jay of course its better, a colder charge is better, everyone knows this, otherwise is a hotter charge better, of course not, it's safer to be cooler, more oxygen rich and dense, making the engine even more det safer keeping away from timing pull, if it's not better why have the laminova, why have front mount intercoolers, why have timing retard if temps are high. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GT86Jay 202 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 Jay of course its better, a colder charge is better, everyone knows this, otherwise is a hotter charge better, of course not, it's safer to be cooler, more oxygen rich and dense, making the engine even more det safer keeping away from timing pull, if it's not better why have the laminova, why have front mount intercoolers, why have timing retard if temps are high. I'm not saying it isn't better. I'm asking what the benefit is of having cooler temps due to methanol injection over not having methanol injection. Can our engines take advantage? I don't see anything wrong with any of the other Turbo . Supercharger cars driving around, they're not having problems...... All im asking is for proven data and proven benefits of fitting Methanol to 'our cars'. Not the theory or the obvious reasons for having cooler intake. If you can prove and show full fat reliable data that Methonal has all these fantastic benefits then I will and im sure many others will go and get it installed. At the moment i'm not seeing the benefits. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 There has already been proven problem with myself and Rob hitting charge temps that cause timing pull meaning we are losing power and the car is having to take action to avoid DET, I'm sure if more monitored their intake temps they would also be seeing this problem, yes while it's not drastic and the car 'deals' with it, lets face it timing pull is not ideal and perfect, the Water/meth is keeping me under and well away from this happening (that's oour engine taking advantage right there). Meaning while having a blast with each other I would have the advantage of no timing pull, the bonus will be to see if Mark can then take advantage even more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GT86Jay 202 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 There has already been proven problem with myself and Rob hitting charge temps that cause timing pull meaning we are losing power and the car is having to take action to avoid DET. Fine. Show us data. Prove it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kodename47 446 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 Without its 48-54 degrees.F*** off is it. I get annoyed when my cruising temps get over 40C. I'll reference my graph again, notice that my cruising RPMs that the temperatures are rather constant low 40s when ambient temperatures are over 20C. I don't mind you "sharing data" but TBH the evidence so far is that temperatures have been inflated/exaggerated in all instances where I know what is fact. Real data, post some bloody data logs up.... I'll happily crunch the data for you as I have the tools to do it and shove it up here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 Well as you know the remap and rolling road is booked so I can show you that data after that, but for the mo the data I have is the readings myself and Rob have on charge temp and as you know the point at which timing pull occurs, obviously without being on the rolling road we dont know the exact amount of bhp we loose, but I'm sure you agree any timing pull will result in a loss of bhp. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 Steve only telling you the truth. Those are the temps. U can show me graphs and pie charts ain't gona change a thing ; ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GT86Jay 202 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 Well as you know the remap and rolling road is booked so I can show you that data after that, but for the mo the data I have is the readings myself and Rob have on charge temp and as you know the point at which timing pull occurs, obviously without being on the rolling road we dont know the exact amount of bhp we loose, but I'm sure you agree any timing pull will result in a loss of bhp. Every single pull will be different on a dyno. One pull to another will be different regardless. If you can show me 3 Dyno pulls that are identical then i'll be convinced. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kodename47 446 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 Well as you know the remap and rolling road is booked so I can show you that data after that, but for the mo the data I have is the readings myself and Rob have on charge temp and as you know the point at which timing pull occurs, obviously without being on the rolling road we dont know the exact amount of bhp we loose, but I'm sure you agree any timing pull will result in a loss of bhp.It's 5-10bhp per degree of timing.So it's just you and Rob that have data? I may as well give up if you just flagrantly ignore the raw data I posted, guess it doen't suit your case well.... BTW that is real data, somewhere in the region of 5 hours worth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rob275 1817 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 Steve only telling you the truth. Those are the temps. U can show me graphs and pie charts ain't gona change a thing ; ) I'm sorry what? You're saying Steve's datalogging from the ECUTek is less accurate than your eyeballs on a gauge which unless you have very good photographic memory, you can't possibly log. Borrow my cable and laptop, go log and send steve the reddies. @Steve, I have no data 2 Kodename47 and GT86Jay reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rob275 1817 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 i'm trying to think of the best way to really log with accurate results really, two cars, same journey, but it's impossible to boost at the same times etc to really obtain something true. Any ideas? I'm happy to help in getting some data here. A few dyno runs really isn't enough in my opinion. Unless you clock up some serious miles on the dyno and measure the ambient temp. Is this what you done steve? How did you keep ambient temps consistent? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 As you say Steve you get annoyed when your temps go over 40 degrees so it does happen and Rob is seeing even higher temps than me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 As you say Steve you get annoyed when your temps go over 40 degrees so it does happen and Rob is seeing even higher temps than me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rob275 1817 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 What happens? Christ even I can't work out what you're trying to prove here now? I'm becoming irritated, and it takes a lot, please do not post until you have logs, if you do then I will just lock the thread and we will never know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 We will leave it that my next post will be the data from mark at abbey with overlays with and without meth, on the dyno showing torque and bhp and I will ask for iat overlays as well. I hope you will accept marks results. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sideways? 33 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 Gutted lol. I'm now very keen to find out why the injectors are placed before the SC! Griff, a quick 101 on air compression - when you compress air it heats up (think bike pump body gets hot after inflating a tyre) therefore purely from an air temperature perspective it is hotter after the supercharger. Additionally, the metal of the supercharger gets hot 1) because it is strapped onto the engine, 2) because it is fed with engine oil and 3) because it is doing work on the air to compress it. So while you might get a greater reduction in air temp injecting meth after the charger, the air would be hotter to begin (due to heat transfer from the body of the charger) with so the final charge temp wouldn't necessarily be lower. James, a direct question, have you ever experienced carb icing? If you have you will know what happens when the intake air temperature gets very cold. In short, colder is generally better, but not always because there is a point where the curve starts going backwards and things get worse. NB I don't know where that point is on our cars and I also don't know how close to it you will get so it might not be a problem, but like everything I've said before it is not as black and white as you make out (or rather, your posts come across)... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 12, 2014 No I have not never had a carb car mate. We all know its a great set up... Yes it is mapped to get great gains and some. Like i said i just want ice cubes in my glass of coke. Never ever change coke just want it colder.. Simples. The s.c fa20 engine can never get that cold never! Actually its the hardest engine and set up devils own has ever tried to cool and drop temps to considerable levels. Put it this way I started with a d03 nozzle normally used on 300bhp cars and my pump set at 200 psi. Got gains but not considerable. Full day of testing today I'm running a d07 nozzle that's used on 700 plus bhp cars and the pump blasting at 250psi.! Devils own has never seen temps like this bar on 600bhp vxr8s. Even they run smaller nozzles a d05 to be exact with 30bhp gains without a map.. But now I'm on the door step of a gain of 20degrees less peak temps on back to back tests. So I am happy with the results. No need to push any further as its there now. But could get more results but just not worth it on my power out puts. Not posting any figures as they are my own for now between myself Bruce and mark. Pls be patient with me I know you all want results as i agree and i know you all do to its a bloody interesting subject. Results good or bad atleast ive do the r&d . good results whether more or consistent power, get a kit or not. Bad then no skin of your noses. So no need to reply just yet folks ; ) in military context wait out ghost rider the pattern is full. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
griffinnn 11 Report post Posted August 13, 2014 Griff, a quick 101 on air compression - when you compress air it heats up (think bike pump body gets hot after inflating a tyre) therefore purely from an air temperature perspective it is hotter after the supercharger. Additionally, the metal of the supercharger gets hot 1) because it is strapped onto the engine, 2) because it is fed with engine oil and 3) because it is doing work on the air to compress it. So while you might get a greater reduction in air temp injecting meth after the charger, the air would be hotter to begin (due to heat transfer from the body of the charger) with so the final charge temp wouldn't necessarily be lower. Thanks very much for that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted August 13, 2014 Understand Water Methanol Injection with Snow Per…: Good viewing this one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rob275 1817 Report post Posted September 2, 2014 Let the methanol discussion continue! James has his car back, he will post dyno plots up. Think Mark will swing by with the AIT in due course Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted September 2, 2014 So as you all know I have had a devils own kit fitted. We had had a awesome debate. So it is data that was needed and I will post it below. There is a before and after water methanol injection dyno runs. Point to note I'm running a stock 75mm pulley and the other point to note is I'm an auto and results are always 10whp or so less than manual cars.Mark himself will post iat data to follow. For him to post data says it all really in my mind. Also since I'm the first fa20 in u.k to have this set up and mark and I are very pleased thus far. Obviously I left abbey with a massive smile as that's the normal effect they have on me over there. Before. S.c no water meth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
