Water Methanol Injection discussion

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Fruli lol

[Kodename47 446]

I've seen temps of 69 degrees with no issues or noticeable affect on power. This was on a humid day, and pushing very hard on track. You wouldn't get near that on road though, if you do, you're running from something and should get nicked

 

I honestly feel the mid 50's being seen is perfectly fine. Still, will be interesting to see if you make anymore or gain some consistency from all this.

At 69C you will be losing power. The IAT Ignition compensations start kicking in at 50-60C (the map has 0 at 50 and a value at 60C). 50-55C seems to be a standard figure that cars are mapped for.

James, after putting that graph up and then comparing to your quoted temperatures. There's not a 15C difference as you quoted, it's actually rather less.

As for the core, I have read that it can lead to moisture condensing and then pooling/dripping as water droplets but this may only be in certain circumstances.

[rob275 1817]

At 69C you will be losing power. The IAT Ignition compensations start kicking in at 50-60C (the map has 0 at 50 and a value at 60C). 50-55C seems to be a standard figure that cars are mapped for.James, after putting that graph up and then comparing to your quoted temperatures. There's not a 15C difference as you quoted, it's actually rather less.As for the core, I have read that it can lead to moisture condensing and then pooling/dripping as water droplets but this may only be in certain circumstances.

A fair point, It can't have made too much of a difference, I didn't particularly notice and lack of power. Not with a detrimental effect anyway.

[KevinA 695]

What an interesting read, I shall not comment as my 700+ engine was turbo charged but running water injection with no meths. Different opinions from owner/driver and tuner are common, so you guys all have valid points. IMHO none of which are wrong.

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Steve. Before Water/Meth I was seeing peaks of 64 degrees doing fairly hard pulls (2nd-4th with a little of 5th), Now my peak is 51, on regular spirited driving I was seeing 50-55 degrees where as now on Meth 39-44 degrees.

So I’m seeing a peak reduction of 13 degrees and an average of 11 degrees consistent and Bruce fills the car needs a bigger nozzle so the temps will still come down yet.

So with the meth I’m staying under the timing pull and loss of power floor limit, with a much denser charge with nice High octane methanol.

What I don’t get though is all my friends with turbo’s wet their self laughing at my charge temp, saying that they all stay well within a max of 6-7 degrees of ambient air temps and there peak charge temps are mid to low 30’s staying most of the time in the 20’s, yet we all on here seem happy at our 50-55??

[Kodename47 446]

What I don’t get though is all my friends with turbo’s wet their self laughing at my charge temp, saying that they all stay well within a max of 6-7 degrees of ambient air temps and there peak charge temps are mid to low 30’s staying most of the time in the 20’s, yet we all on here seem happy at our 50-55??

I hope they're wearing absorbant underwear!

How many of them are running direct injection turbos?

As to why I'm happy, the car is tuned to run at those temperatures and makes decent power so what's the issue. It's the efficiency of the charge cooler system that's different.

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

They are driving skylines, Evo’s, MK4 Golfs, Focus ST’s etc

Yes we are making decent power, but the issue is with a cooler charge temp we could all be making more power that is still nice and safe.

Also if you look online most tuners and intercooler manufactures all talking about keeping the charge 40 degrees and under and even to the point 80 degrees is regarded as to hot and I hit 64 without even being on track or doing a hard long pull holding 5th.

No one is disputing our sprintex kit and its cooling ermm I got one Lol its amazing and I love it to bits. I'm just saying cooler temps has more benefits than not. Think of it as putting ice in your favourite drink. Tastes better ..No brainer...

[Kodename47 446]

They are driving skylines, Evo’s, MK4 Golfs, Focus ST’s etc

So none of those use any form of DI then? There's a reason that our car uses 2 sets of injectors and it's not for more fuel

TBH the charge cooling, or just the charge temps in general, is the one thing that I think stops this kit being perfect. However, it has only really become an "issue" over the hot summer. Another few months and charge temps naturally drop by around 10C.

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

I agree Steve the kits are pretty much perfect and look and work lovely but the charge temps is the only thing i wanted to make better which is why I opted for the water/Meth injection as I’m already showing winter to even lower charge temps in the middle of summer with even more to come. (god only knows how lovely and cool it’ll go in the winter

[GT86Jay 202]

I agree Steve the kits are pretty much perfect and look and work lovely but the charge temps is the only thing i wanted to make better which is why I opted for the water/Meth injection as I’m already showing winter to even lower charge temps in the middle of summer with even more to come. (god only knows how lovely and cool it’ll go in the winter

 

Possibly too cool. 

 

So what's the temperature of your engine block? That's kept at a steady 90c from the thermostat and coolant surely? 

I thought that was the point of the Cosworth thermostat - to reduce the temp with their thermostat...

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Jay it obviously needs to be cooler otherwise there wouldn’t be mods out there such as cooler thermostats, intercoolers, oil coolers etc Just think how cold things are in countries like Russia and northern Europe I'm just bringing those countries here ; ).

Anyways the block isn’t going to reduce much in temps from water/meth it’s the charge temp is the main thing we are cooling here and talking about not the block.

[rob275 1817]

well yes/no James, engines don't work efficiently if too cool. You probably wouldn't need the Meth in the winter. The purpose of an oil cooler is to keep the oil at the most optimum temperature (lets say 90c for arguments sake) if you froze it to 30c it wouldn't work. at the same time 130 would be too much. Cooler is not always better.

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

I agree Rob, but as I said water/meth isn’t going to cool the engine and oil that much, that’s not what it’s for, Even in the winter it’s not going to make oil or water temps drop below the 90 degrees and as you say that’s what the thermostats are for to control that anyways.

We are talking about charge temps alone which is what water/meth is for, cooler is always better

[hashiriya 52]

So I don't think the argument is not whether it is good/bad. The fact that it has an effect is obvious and its now more of a debate as to how much of an effect it has.

 

My question I guess would then be if Meth/Water is the miracle cure as suggested by some, why is adoption so relatively low? It's not like its a well kept secret and people don't know about it... Are we trying to scratch an itch that isn't there?

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Well my effects so far on temps are posted on the previous page with more adjustment coming and final results to come from my visit to Mark.

You say adoption is relatively low, yet there are loads of companies (aem,snow, Devilsown, Aquamist, Alkysystems, Coolingmist) to name a few, employing hundreds of people which means there is obviously a massive market to support all these companies.

I have to admit if it wasn’t for a chance meeting through a friend I would of never known about water/meth, I generally believe the biggest problem is lack of knowledge on the product and lack of people even knowing it exists.

[Kodename47 446]

I generally believe the biggest problem is lack of knowledge on the product and lack of people even knowing it exists.

It's been around for years, it's not a "new science."

As for low temperatures:

Low oil temperature - can cause loss of lubrication.

Low Block Temperatures - numerous combustion issues can arise. This is one of the reason you have warm up routines.

Low cylinder temperatures - see above, they are correlated.

Low intake temperatures - can mean a poor fuel mixture as fuel does not fully atomize and can form droplets on the valves. Again, correlated with the cylinder temperatures.

Obviously, I don't think that you will see the IATs low enough to cause atomization problems on this SC but it's definitely something to consider.

What seems to be completely overlooked is the fact that our cars have a way of cooling the charge from within the cylinder. The IAT at the sensor is not the whole story

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Yep I found out it’s been around for years, wish I knew sooner, hate to think what else is out there.

I don’t know why we keep focusing on this to cold oil temp and engine/block temp, it’s not going to happen from water/meth, My oil temps are a good 110 degrees without going on track so any reduction I do get (seen 5 degrees) is going to help, I need it down more anyways so going to add a oil cooler ready for track.

Even with water/meth we aren’t going to see IAT’s that are going to be an issue.

Nitrous is minus 200 degrees far colder than water/meth, don’t tell me I can’t use that also?

[GT86Jay 202]

My oil temps are a good 110 degrees without going on track so any reduction 

 

You have a problem then. 

[Kodename47 446]

I wasn't saying that your particular setup will make things too cold, you hinted that living in colder climates was beneficial and it's really not always the case. The engine has an optimum operating range.

PS - Nitrous is roughly -100C when released.

[rob275 1817]

You have a problem then. 

 

As do I, 129C for me

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Sorry I think you miss understood me, I didn't mean they were necessary beneficial, but the engines are quite happy in those countries and developed for it.

Even so minus 100 is a dam site colder than water/meth.

Jay it runs 80-90 under general driving which is perfect, but under heavy hard pulls/spirit driving hits 110 hence the comment about the oil cooler, but again this is off subject on oil and engine not charge temps and water/meth.

[GT86Jay 202]

As do I, 129C for me

 

Just driving around? Mine sits at about 95 - 98c 

[rob275 1817]

Just driving around? Mine sits at about 95 - 98c 

 

No on track, I saw 129 on the track day before the last TSS. Normally i'm waving around 89c

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

I know myself and rob don't have any issues with oil temps even when rob hits 129 on track. Reason being we are using millers nano drive triple ester racing oil which is rated to 125-150 degree temps. Yes cooler is better but as it is we are good.

Today I hit a average iat temp of 28-33 degrees in normal driving. That's with meth on constantly. Without its 48-54 degrees. Massive difference. Just a point to note.

[GT86Jay 202]

I know myself and rob don't have any issues with oil temps even when rob hits 129 on track. Reason being we are using millers nano drive triple ester racing oil which is rated to 125-150 degree temps. Yes cooler is better but as it is we are good.

Today I hit a average iat temp of 28-33 degrees in normal driving. That's with meth on constantly. Without its 48-54 degrees. Massive difference. Just a point to note.

 

 

It's a worthless point without data to prove that its better? 

 

Who said 28-33degrees is better anyway? Evidence boy.....