Special K 442 Report post Posted May 20, 2015 As the 'Age of Recovery' threads on this Forum seem to be an interesting subject I will add my own. Not only to waste half an hour on a keyboard but hopefully to give some guidance, insight and depth of pockets required for those who seek the ultimate. "eh?" I hear you think.... "..ultimate what?" As MLK said, 'I have a dream'. And mine is to own, drive (and ultimately sell) the fastest, best driveable road-going auto GT86 in Europe. I am not interested in pretty - I want power, roadholding and predictability... but I insist it is controllable for road (my Granny should be able to drive it, she's 134 and in a wooden box) yet capable of testing her grandson's capabilities at Sprint and trackdays. Over last winter I engaged Fensport to rebuild my engine with an HKS kit - stroked crank (to 2.2L), new cams (to accommodate the higher piston lift), forged pistons to their design and forged rods. At the same time new injectors and new oil pump. And a stage 3 AVO turbo to mate with my existing 3" exhaust system (also AVO). Why not Cosworth? They are still poncing about with their forged kit, Adrian at Fensport was still prototyping their stuff, first engine they produced had big problems and it will be a year next Thursday before Cosworth get off their arses and do anything for genuine enthusiasts andget more than their basics on the market. Why not Carillo and the other stuff from the US? Because I have only met one US supplier worth anything in terms of meeting overseas motorsport commitments - SSP for auto gearbox upgrades. I know Mark at Abbey swears by the 'other stuff' suppliers, having built LFA's engine - but he/they don't use them on the road and they are, to my mind, unproven in the UK where no alternative has existed. (And LFA chooses to dismiss my invites to prove his car inthe UK..) The downside with the HKS kit - for a turbo car - is dictated by their marketing platform. They want to sell their s/c kits, so the compression ratio is left high. It detracts from the benefit of bottom end boost generated by turbo. They offer three different cylinder head gasket thicknesses (which make a difference of 11.8:1 and 11.5:1 by my maths). And when Carillo/other kits are offering 10:1 c/r (or slightly lower) it seems perverse - Cossie have learned the lesson over the market resistance to 'package' selling, why has Japan not reacted? But... with the Fensport ECU mapping the turbo boost can be 'progressive'.. (money).. and it is customised to your specific car (money). Hence the decision to map my car in (1) road (2) extreme road (3) wet track (4) extreme track (more money). Some of you may be aware that I am the only auto trans competing in Europe. Last year, after advice that the Toyo autotrans is built of tissue and stuck together with bubblegum (it is a Lexus de-engineered 8-speed to a paperweight 6-speed, worthy of a max 260bhp), I went to US and got an upgraded autotrans from SSP. I chose stage 2 valve body (see website) - and, sure enough, it kicks you up the arse when you change on road, it is uncomfortable and, after five miles, my daughter went into premature labour! (I joke). On track it is seemless.. instant response when driving over 4k revs. As I was planning my engine upgrade, Kris (at SSP) made me aware of a clutch upgrade which was going well with the dragsters over there. One car in NewYork State is pulling 600bhp at the wheels and running a standard Toyo box upgraded with this kit. Has to be the way to go, I think, and ordered a kit - discussed it with Fensport who washed their hands of it - autotrans they have no knowledge about, other than getting it out of your chassis and refitting it. Howver, Adrian gave me a contact - a man who is, ostensibly, the top competition autotrans guy in the UK (. to be continued) Spec K 6 JamesP1991, 86alex, Keethos and 3 others reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pitman 188 Report post Posted May 20, 2015 Great write up, Keith - book marked for the next installment 1 Special K reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lauren 2259 Report post Posted May 20, 2015 So is it still at that point then? The box isn't back in yet? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tareim 343 Report post Posted May 20, 2015 definitely will be following this as I have an auto box and will need to look at improvements for FI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamesP1991 222 Report post Posted May 20, 2015 Will be following this closely to see how the situation develops Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted May 21, 2015 Nice Keith. Hope it all comes together. Why not look at the likes of full blown motor sports in terms on engine internals. I suggest them as the are the leader in big power turbo applications. Their stage 1 is the equal and more than a stage 3 a.v.o kit. They produce their own blocks. Check the link.http://fullblownmotorsports.com/shopmake/subaru/brz/engine?limit=20 They produce full blocks to. And considering you want the most fastest auto in euro these parts are tried and tested and a perfect match for big power turbo applications. But this is a very interesting tread mate. Looking out for more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 442 Report post Posted May 21, 2015 So is it still at that point then? The box isn't back in yet? I don't want to pre-empt my dialogue but I can in all honesty say.... I don't know. Spec K Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 442 Report post Posted May 21, 2015 Nice Keith. Hope it all comes together. Why not look at the likes of full blown motor sports in terms on engine internals. I suggest them as the are the leader in big power turbo applications. Their stage 1 is the equal and more than a stage 3 a.v.o kit. They produce their own blocks. Check the link.http://fullblownmotorsports.com/shopmake/subaru/brz/engine?limit=20 They produce full blocks to. And considering you want the most fastest auto in euro these parts are tried and tested and a perfect match for big power turbo applications. But this is a very interesting tread mate. Looking out for more. James - it is not the power that is the issue, it is the autotrans. The engine is a solid as a rock once you drop the c/r... I don't know what the GPRM car is producing but it has to be north of 500bhp to live with the Astons and BMWZ4's in Avon GT racing . But that is fitted with an Xtreme 6-speed sequential box, rated at over 800bhp.. I have been offered a custom built autotrans - 4 speed - which would handle 1000bhp and could be made to fit. But no-one in the world (and I do mean no-one, as far as I have researched) has tried to unravel the autotrans ECU maps. And without that it's a waste of time to even think about it - you might just as well buy a manual and mod it to take an autotrans. Spec K Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted May 21, 2015 Roger that ghost rider. I feel ya. I'm pretty much going to stay as I am or when mark says there is another way to extract power or bolt on a new kit. But as far as I know a turbo Will always kill a trans compared to a s.c. but either way we are in the same boat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted May 22, 2015 How are you addressing cooling mate with all this power to come Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lauren 2259 Report post Posted May 22, 2015 Well, I do hope you find a way, Keith. I guess Woodbridge is the next target really. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted May 22, 2015 Keith, could you not upload a Manual Map, or even change the ECU for a manual one, then get an aftermarket Auto box with a standalone ECU??Have you spoken to EcuTek, they remap the GTR 'box. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 442 Report post Posted May 22, 2015 James, I am re-siting the transmission oil cooler/electric pump from the rear (inside the rear bumper) and the engine oil cooler (in front of the intercooler). More on that later. Nige, I am told the manual ECU mapping is totally incompatible with the auto ECU mapping. Swaps as you suggest are fraught with problems. And the cost/benefit for Ecutek (or any other elecronics remodeller) to undertake the time commitment for a mere handful of autotrans cars in the world does not warrant it. Be that as it may.... my car is back with Fensport, Adrian has road tested it !! More on that later... Spec K Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted May 22, 2015 So, how's about a helical cut sequential quaife QB69G with paddle shift? Your engine will break before that 'box ever lets go!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tareim 343 Report post Posted May 22, 2015 As I was planning my engine upgrade, Kris (at SSP) made me aware of a clutch upgrade which was going well with the dragsters over there. One car in NewYork State is pulling 600bhp at the wheels and running a standard Toyo box upgraded with this kit. Has to be the way to go, I think, and ordered a kit - discussed it with Fensport who washed their hands of it - autotrans they have no knowledge about, other than getting it out of your chassis and refitting it. Howver, Adrian gave me a contact - a man who is, ostensibly, the top competition autotrans guy in the UK (. to be continued) Spec K just wanted some clarification on this bit, does the SSP upgrades handle FI (particularly SC) and that fensport wouldn't do it for you just because they don't have knowledge of autoboxes? or they said no because it wont hold it? as I would love a SC just really concerned about the auto box Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 442 Report post Posted May 22, 2015 So, how's about a helical cut sequential quaife QB69G with paddle shift? Your engine will break before that 'box ever lets go!! Nige.... Nige, Nige, Nige.... forget the engine, my blurry eardrums would break !! Have you heard a s/cut sequential? Adrian is/has putting one in his car... how's he gonna get earmuffs inside his bone-dome? Listen to the in-car video of the GPRM projectile.. you're trying to put me in a box before my time! (C'mon, man - speak up! I can't hear you....) just wanted some clarification on this bit, does the SSP upgrades handle FI (particularly SC) and that fensport wouldn't do it for you just because they don't have knowledge of autoboxes? or they said no because it wont hold it? as I would love a SC just really concerned about the auto box Yes, Tareim - the SSP upgrades will meet the extra demands of f/I. Yes - Fensport declined to touch the auto box because they admit to having no knowledge of it. (Considering that all Toyo warranty claims on auto boxes result in a replacement, not parts - and every box is shipped out to nowhere - is it fit for purpose? Raises questions, yes?). What matters is what your demands are, so listen to your f/i installer... If you are looking for just a street car with added grunt up to, say, 210-240bhp at the hubs (which is 35%-45% more than the std. car) the SSP uprated torque converter and stage one valve body assembly will suit you. That's it - a simple replacement jobby, nothing else required. Well, mebbe a better ATF... If you are looking for street car with attitude (and a yearning to take it seriously, say 240-260bhp, with Sprint) then I would choose the torque converter, upgrade stage two valve body assembly and consider seriously the rear trans oil cooler option, which includes an electric pump. This is not a simple replacement jobby - this is tapping take-offs/returns to the trans oil sump and routing oil pipes, mounting the heat exchanger on brackets inside the rear bumper, mounting/wiring in electric pump and (I recommend) fabricating a stone-guard over it. So we're into Abbey Motorsport/Fensport techy fit territory If you're looking at more than the occasional trackday as well (or, like me, wanna drive 200-odd miles at Spa on a 2013 day or seriously give it some beans at Oulton, as Lauren and I did in Feb this year) then, at that level of bhp, you're gonna need the uprated clutches. You would also be looking to improve the trans oil cooling, as the 'rear bumper' location is inefficient My car was dyno'd in Feb this year in both maps - road and race. The turbo boost difference, mapped at my request, was approx 0.2bar At the lower pressure I was producing, at the hubs 244bhp at 6700rpm / 216lb-ft torque at 4600rpm. Add 0.2bar and the respective figures were 265bhp/234lb-ft, which I ran for the final Sprint last year. I have happily run the lower figure for over a year, on the road, without autotrans upgrade. But I was on the ragged edge of reliability when it came to trackdays - it was a blessing I survived Spa and was (I think) down to the fact it's a low gear-change circuit. Oulton Park (with the added boost) cooked my box, we now know - my engine temp went up to 130degrees, so the trans oil was way above that.. the dog clutches removed from the box were 'blued/burned out' through overheating. Tareim - merely to give you another matter to put into you mental arithmetic. I am running a 4.67 diff ratio - not the standard 4.1 diff ratio - so I am faster off the line and using more gears... even in road traffic my car is changing gear far more frequently (and with more slip) than normal. Slip generates heat - and it is heat/distortion which buggers the box. Happy to share because it can improve the breed. Spec K 1 Tareim reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tareim 343 Report post Posted May 22, 2015 well I'd like to do the occasional track day though I'm not fussed about a shorter final drive as the cruise gearing is nice for if I were to do longer trips, brings the costs down, do you think I'd be ok if I ran a decent trans cooler with a sc setup without autobox upgrades? 1 CHOSENMAN007 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted May 22, 2015 Keith, I specifically said Helical cut, as I know you don't want noise! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted May 22, 2015 Keith, I specifically said Helical cut, as I know you don't want noise! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 442 Report post Posted May 23, 2015 well I'd like to do the occasional track day though I'm not fussed about a shorter final drive as the cruise gearing is nice for if I were to do longer trips, brings the costs down, do you think I'd be ok if I ran a decent trans cooler with a sc setup without autobox upgrades? On balance - and presuming output in the 240bhp region - I would recommend the uprated torque converter. Most manual f/i cars will be upgrading their clutches to cope with the additional 80-odd bhp, so it's the same thing, really. But converters generate heat - one item you might consider is the finned trans oil sump which Tommy at Summit showed me - a cheaper option than the SSP oil cooler. Mark at Abbey was the first to fit the SSP upgrade to a s/c car (I believe) - the guy was a Lydden for the BHP Show but I've not seen/heard from him since and I don't know how he has fared - it might be worth asking Mark. Spec K Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 442 Report post Posted May 23, 2015 Keith, I specifically said Helical cut, as I know you don't want noise! Ah..... good point. And a good call for a manual trans car. But you don't have to shout! Spec K Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted May 23, 2015 Tarim I have a s.c with 240 hub and my auto has no dramas in coping. No cooler.I do push my car hard on road as where I live we have a lot of private roads and open tarmac spaces. So for hard road no dramas. Point to note 240 hub in a s.c is no where as hard on your motor and transmission as a turbo. Its the torque that will cook your trans. A s.c brings linear power (more you squeeze more you get). A turbo hits hard mid range with everything. Mate you don't need to touch your auto trans at all unless - 1. You go big blower on a built motor. 2. You track very often. Hope it helps. James 1 Tareim reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted May 23, 2015 Keith I spoke to a vehicle tech at work who works on stuff we can't buy ; ) I asked how to strengthen a auto box and would valve bodies and a torque converter do it. Simply put he said no, they only change when the gear shifts. But uprated parts will help. He said look at new stronger clutch packs. Views? James Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tareim 343 Report post Posted May 23, 2015 Tarim I have a s.c with 240 hub and my auto has no dramas in coping. No cooler.I do push my car hard on road as where I live we have a lot of private roads and open tarmac spaces. So for hard road no dramas. Point to note 240 hub in a s.c is no where as hard on your motor and transmission as a turbo. Its the torque that will cook your trans. A s.c brings linear power (more you squeeze more you get). A turbo hits hard mid range with everything. Mate you don't need to touch your auto trans at all unless - 1. You go big blower on a built motor. 2. You track very often. Hope it helps. James which SC do you have? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CHOSENMAN007 81 Report post Posted May 23, 2015 which SC do you have? A sprintex 210 with water/methanol injection. 1 Tareim reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
