Oil Discussions

[Ade 517]

 

as long as the lubrication system is good I am sure this item will be okay for 500bhp.

 

 

 

I dont think the lubrication system is good enough. Stock oil pressure is on the low side in the first place, probably to improve economy.

 

I had oil up to 139C and Oil pressure (top gallery into the crank) was measuring less than 35PSI around Coram (Snetterton 300) at high revs.

 

Element Tuning managed to damage a bearing (one of the middle ones fed by the single larger oil channel) due what points to low oil pressure. In the end they had an Oil accumulator, pump and modified the oil channels in the block to increase pressure. They ened up with soemthing like 80PSI at 9k rpms with 550HP.

 

 

[Guest]

Mark,

 

I don't think the GPRM motors are dry sumped, they just use an extraordinarily large catch can. I remember when I was there they had two FA20 motored cars with the hoods up and one even had the sump off, it looked like a stock pick up to me with a swivelling extension on the end.

 

I can confirm the crank in the FA 20 is extremely strong. For a start it is forged, it is very short and it has good overlap between the journals. I have clocked the crank in my motor which took in water. It bent the rods and smashed the ring lands off the pistons, but the crank clocks up perfect. It is also perfectly round on each journal.

[Ade 517]

GPRM probably have an oil accumulator. It not a catch can exactly. Its filled with oil and is designed to feed oil into the system when the pickup at the bottom in the sump is not picking up oil due to large cornering forces. The accumulator is pressurised from one side, so if pressure drops it, as would be the case if it was being starved of oil, the accumulators feeds high pressure oil into the engine.

 

Shamelessly pilfered from google:

 

 

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

so they are just using a Accusump then.

 

The stock crank has a very funny designed oil drilling from the centre main to No. 2 and 3  big end bearing.

[Ade 517]

Although there are some race cars with a dry sump setup, it seems most motorsports firms are finding an oil accumulator adequate for running slicks and silly power. The main thing they concentrate on is increasing oil pressure. I'd love to know what Nicholson McLaren have done with the FA20.

[Lauren 2259]

I was down at GPRM last Friday. I did see a dry sump setup with the pump bolted on which was a recent addition, so it looks likely they will be going that way. 

[Guest]

I was down at GPRM last Friday. I did see a dry sump setup with the pump bolted on which was a recent addition, so it looks likely they will be going that way.

Thanks for posting this Lauren. They bare obviously seeing lube issues if they're going to the trouble of dry sumps. It was definitly the FA 20 yeah? I believe they also use the EJ, or so I've been told?

I was reading about the C3 cars last night, they have gone to hydraulic power steering with the pump in place of the air con.

[shiftspark 41]

I thought you have an upgraded oil pump for yours Nigelr32 ?

[Special K 442]

so they are just using a Accusump then.

 

The stock crank has a very funny designed oil drilling from the centre main to No. 2 and 3  big end bearing.

 

Mark - have HKS addressed this issue with their stroked crank?

 

Spec K

[Special K 442]

I thought you have an upgraded oil pump for yours Nigelr32 ?

 

The 'upgraded oil pump' was binned by my engine builder, as its clearance tolerances were outside his acceptable parameters when compared with 'standard' Toyo clearances. We are talking tiddy bits here - 2thou to 5thou? - but sufficient to cause blow-by at these psi pressures..

 

Fensport immediately checked  their stock items, all had the same tolerance as mine and I am told they checked with Nige..

 

I believe they are "re-manufacturing" them - is that right, Nige?

 

Spec K

[Guest]

I checked my reimax pump and it is well within tolerance.

It is very interesting to note that the pump closely matches the dimensions of a new pump, but does not match the dimensions of a pump that has done a few thousand miles. It's almost as though the outer ring of the pump "stretches"??

Now, this is Marks Abbey Motorsport thread. I feel I e taken it off topic?? Sorry Mark.

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

Special K , what pump rotors was you using before they where rejected by your engine builder?

 

Shall we get Rob to split this thread our development car and oil discussions.

 

Can you sort thos Rob please leave both thread under Abbey Motorsport please.

[Ade 517]

The uprated oil pump is not much use anyway. Even the slightly wider FA20DIT pump gear (with a normal gear profile) is only a slight improvement to oil pressures. To run serious power at right revs, the FA20 needs serious Oiling mods to protect the engine long term.

 

Sorry mark. Looknig forward to hear more about your suspension development

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

is the oil pressure better on your car GT86owner if the oil temp is below 100 deg C?

[Lauren 2259]

Thanks for posting this Lauren. They bare obviously seeing lube issues if they're going to the trouble of dry sumps. It was definitly the FA 20 yeah? I believe they also use the EJ, or so I've been told?

I was reading about the C3 cars last night, they have gone to hydraulic power steering with the pump in place of the air con.

 

 

I wouldn't have mentioned it, Nige if it wasn't the FA20. 

[Ade 517]

Hi Mark,

 

Oil pressure are not particularly well regulated. At cold (10-15C ambient) I see 120psi with 0W20. Pressures drop gradually as temps rise inline with the oil getting thinner. I do keep meaning to log it properly and graph it.... Perhaps my next track day....

 

Oil pressure on my car (no oil cooler) is about 10psi/krpm at 100C oil temp - measured using the stock oil temperature sensor.

 

I measure oil pressure at the top gallery next to the AC - this is where the crank is fed with oil. If you put an oil cooler (sandwich plate type) you lose about 10PSI oil pressure at a the same temp. So at 100C I might see 70psi @ 7 krpm / 100C where as with the cooler you see about 60psi @ 7k rpm / 100C.

 

Obviously the oil cooler keeps temps down a bit  but the oil pressure drop unfortunately negates some the pressure gain by keeping oil temps down.

 

I think the solution is an oil cooler and a thicker oil.

 

The Team Toyota Motorsport GT86 CS-VS car is recommended to run 10W60 and all the engine has is a custom exaust, tune and low temp thermostat (same temps as cosworth). They do offer an optional Oil cooler and it is not a particularly big one either, mounted smack bang in the middle of the radiator.

[Guest]

The uprated oil pump is not much use anyway. Even the slightly wider FA20DIT pump gear (with a normal gear profile) is only a slight improvement to oil pressures. To run serious power at right revs, the FA20 needs serious Oiling mods to protect the engine long term.

 

Sorry mark. Looknig forward to hear more about your suspension development

 

The uprated oil pump is well worth it actually, due to the fact the stock pump has a weird wasted volume profile, supposedly to keep pressure up at lower revs?? Also, the stock pump is made of sintered parts and at least one has failed with a split outer ring.. which brings me back to the point i mentioned earlier.. strange how the used outer rings are bigger than new ones.

 

Of course all this is based on my limited experience, the measurement data from two post 10,000 mile engines and two very low mileage engines. If you want to know about the longevity of sintered oil pump gears, ask anyone with an early RB26!!

[Ade 517]

Yes in a way it is to increase pressures at low revs by allowing a larger pump gear to be used.

 

The profile of the stock oil pump gear makes for a less linear increase in flow vs revs.

 

So if you have a large gear you can then have say 50psi at 3krpm and 70psi at 7krpm... Looking at oil pressure at low temps, I get like 6-7 bar at a few krpms but it maxes out at 8-9 at max revs. Sorry my guage is metric. Multiply Bar by ~14 to get psi.

 

I dont think it is worth the effort to pull the covers off to fit the uprated pump gear, but if I was doing a build like you nige, I would definetly fit one

 

In terms of what it does to oil pressures, very little if you go by the testing element tuning did. They tried the FA20DIT pump gear which is a traditional profile and 2mm wider. Pressures were not particularly improved at 120-140C unfortunately.

[Guest]

I wasn't aware anyone had tested the Reimsxreimax pump yet? I only bought it because it's billet rather than sintered.

When I measured the volume of the pockets and calculated the difference because of the lower number of pockets, it looks like this pump will move something like 5 litres more oil at 6K revs. More volume doesn't mean more pressure when we consider the relief valve, but it will definitely help with high temperatures when the oil has the consistency of milk.

[Ade 517]

The Forester FA20DIT pump gear has a tradition profile, similar to the Reimmax but its 2mm wider.... It didnt do a huge amout to oil pressures unfortunately. The forester FA20 DIT also has modified oiling channels.

 

[Ade 517]

Some people put shims into the relive valve to keep pressures up.

 

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

One of the issues I feel is the huge difference between cold and hot oil pressure.

 

Using a thicker oil will make a higher cold oil pressure that I am a little worried about , my road car runs 0w20 and I see 110+ psi on cold start up being careful until the car is warm.

 

My friend in NZ that runs a turbo powered GT86 uses a 0W40 oil in his stock motor , he runs a 25 row oil cooler he is also running a M1 motec ECU and dash so has a lot of dataloged data, he sees 120+ oil pressure on cold start @ 3000rpm , , when running on the track he sees 115C oil temp (big baffled sump also fitted) he only sees around 50psi hot oil pressure, which we both feel isn't enough. He also said running the thicker oil doesn't cause any issues with the cam control.

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

 

strange what they have done inside the BLUE ring area around the oil pressure release valve

[smudge 1020]

One of the issues I feel is the huge difference between cold and hot oil pressure.

 

Using a thicker oil will make a higher cold oil pressure that I am a little worried about , my road car runs 0w20 and I see 110+ psi on cold start up being careful until the car is warm.

 

My friend in NZ that runs a turbo powered GT86 uses a 0W40 oil in his stock motor , he runs a 25 row oil cooler he is also running a M1 motec ECU and dash so has a lot of dataloged data, he sees 120+ oil pressure on cold start @ 3000rpm , , when running on the track he sees 115C oil temp (big baffled sump also fitted) he only sees around 50psi hot oil pressure, which we both feel isn't enough. He also said running the thicker oil doesn't cause any issues with the cam control.

 

On a cold start my oil pressure gauge is showing around 120-130 psi

[Ade 517]

Smudge thermostatic plates still have leakage even when cold, so it still drops some pressure. If you not runnnig a cooler then it will be a bit higher.

 

We'll see what Cosworth think is needed for stage 3 which is going to be 325HP. If its just rods and pistons and they dont even recommend a thicker oil, then perhaps lower than universally accepted oil pressure is okay for these barings.