Oil Discussions

[Ade 517]

 

strange what they have done inside the BLUE ring area around the oil pressure release valve

 

I think the pressure relief is firmer to keep pressures up a bit, but not 100% on that.

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

I was talking about the alloy casing being modified.

 

I think the huge pressure difference between hot and cold is possible the alloy casings expanding and the side tolerance between the oil pump gears and casing increasing and allowing oil to be pushed out around the gear.

 

 I been told the cam control will work with a much thicker than stock oil without any issues as well.

[Kodename47 446]

So what are you thinking is a good idea for a basic FI setup like the Sprintex/HKS for occasional track abuse?

0W30/5W40? Oil cooler required or just a sump like RacerX?

[Ade 517]

Definitely a thicker oil. As I've said many times. TMG recommend 10W60 in the na cup car! My money is on 5W40 millers cfs nt

[Special K 442]

Special K , what pump rotors was you using before they where rejected by your engine builder?

 

Shall we get Rob to split this thread our development car and oil discussions.

 

Can you sort thos Rob please leave both thread under Abbey Motorsport please.

 

Engine was fitted with OEM pump rotors, plan was to install Reimax with the HKS upgrade. I have now reverted to the OEM.

 

(Good idea to split the thread, Mark)

 

Spec K

[Special K 442]

Mine is similar to your NZ friend, Mark (turbo, 25-row oil cooler).

 

On cold startup I see 7-8bar, at 3krpm warm it's 3-4bar. I'm using Millers 0W40 oil.

 

Overheating is an issue but it only arises on sustained trackday use - I saw 135degrees at Oulton Park with sustained 6kplus engine revs.

 

This is being addressed by repositioning the oil cooler for better air flow and vented undertray/bonnet. Heat buildup in the engine bay is, of course, an issue with turbo that does not arise with s/c in competition.

 

I hope to guage the results at a Brands evening trackday in June before Woodbridge. If I can remember how to drive...

 

Spec K

[Ade 517]

Is that 0W40 competition oil keith? I thought the miller cfs nt was 5W40.

[Lauren 2259]

 

Overheating is an issue but it only arises on sustained trackday use - I saw 135degrees at Oulton Park with sustained 6kplus engine revs.

 

This is being addressed by repositioning the oil cooler for better air flow and vented undertray/bonnet. Heat buildup in the engine bay is, of course, an issue with turbo that does not arise with s/c in competition.

 

 

 

I was surprised Keith, how quickly your oil temp became an issue when driving on track. Think it took about ten minutes. These were twenty minute sessions after all. I did wonder whether your cooler was working at all, but if it was down to airflow, then it couldn't have been getting any. 

 

You'd think that there would be plenty of airflow on the track, but 135C is very high for a car with an oil cooler.

[Ade 517]

Well mine is na and I had the oil up to 139C. A turbo charged car will affect oil temps a bit and typically an oil cooler will drop 15-20C depending on the size of the radiator. So to me 135C would be resonable with the smallish coolers people are fitting. Keith what cooler do you have?

Keith - were you using the stock oil temp sensor or your own one from the sandwich plate? (If so was it oil temp pre or post cooler?)

[Special K 442]

Is that 0W40 competition oil keith? I thought the miller cfs nt was 5W40.

 

Sorry, my error. I've just checked in my garage - I'm using 0W30 Millers CFS NT Competition Race Oil.

 

 

I was surprised Keith, how quickly your oil temp became an issue when driving on track. Think it took about ten minutes. These were twenty minute sessions after all. I did wonder whether your cooler was working at all, but if it was down to airflow, then it couldn't have been getting any. 

 

You'd think that there would be plenty of airflow on the track, but 135C is very high for a car with an oil cooler.

 

Lauren, I had not seen anything near that temp whilst I was driving at Oulton. I maxed at 115degrees.. your temps dropped back to normality within half a lap, it was remarkable..

 

I wonder if it might have as much to do with driving style as airflow? With turbo charging the need for continuous 6k-plus revs hardly exists, as the power is there from 4k onwards. I've had to change my method of driving since moving away from n/a, where max revs are (almost) essential.

 

Yes - I do think airflow is restricted through the oil cooler being mounted in front of the intercooler and water rad but  my car in n/a mode was giving 163bhp at the hubs at 6700rpm (Abbey dyno) and now it's giving the same bhp at 3800 rpm, with a max 264bhp at the same 6700rpm(TDI dyno).

 

That's a lorra, lorra extra heat to get rid of.. but I am mindful that Adrian ran last year's car at far higher power levels without any of these problems in Sprint... continuous pounding around a track for 20 mins is chalk to cheese by comparison. I am also mindful that I did nearly 200 miles at Spa - 20 lap sessions, sharing the driving so it was nigh-on continuous - without any problems whatsoever.

 

Hopefully these minor irritations are behind me. Adrian did 40 miles road on Friday, using full throttle at 0.5bar - no problems with autochanges or temperatures (according to both guages) and we've still got the coolers to re-site.. again, I think the vented bonnet makes a significant difference.

 

Whether these changes will cope with the greater power I hope to attain is another matter.. it is only by a trackday that the pudding will be proved edible...

 

Spec K

[Lauren 2259]

I guess I must have been driving it harder, can't think of another explanation. Though I did drive it in Sport mode which kind of made it feeling like it was holding back all the time. That might not have been helping. But, yes, I do like to use all the revs! 

 

Spa is much faster though and there are good opportunities for a lot of airflow and longer gaps between corners, so less braking and accelerating, plus your average speed will be a lot higher round Spa. 

 

I hope your cooling problems are behind you now. 

[Ade 517]

Turbo charging will increae oil temps but not by a massive amount. The water sysyem should keep the block at a resonable temperature - assuming it has the capacity, which it seems to have. Its revs that really gets the oil hot (friction) and I can comfirm I use alot of revs all the time on track. I heart revs :-)

I've had oil up to 130C on the road!! A particular bendy bit of road thay I know well it was.

[Special K 442]

I admit to looking a long time ago at combined water/oil rads to mitigate the lack of space with intercooler, etc.

 

I am now glad I followed the (cautious) advice I was given..

 

Spec K

[Guest]

Keith, great, interesting thread..

 

You may have said already, but i missed it.. are you on the stock Rad? Which Oil cooler are you using?

 

If you check out the FT86 Forums, you'll find that there is a company in the US making a small washer bottle, I have one off Steve's car, which you can borrow if you like, just to see if it's what you need?

 

Dave at Fensport fitted it for Steve, so he'll remember all about it.

[Lauren 2259]

I've had a think about this and I think I know what the issue is with me and the revs in Keith's car. I was flat shifting, but due to the delay on the autobox the revs would climb higher as I went to shift gear. Obviously I'd never flat shift in a manual so that might explain it. I'd pull the paddle but the revs would climb higher by the time the box shifted up to the next gear. So stuff like that wouldn't help I guess. 

 

I honestly don't know if you are supposed to lift as you shift up with an auto, but I really have never driven an auto on track before Keith's car. 

[Special K 442]

I've had a think about this and I think I know what the issue is with me and the revs in Keith's car. I was flat shifting, but due to the delay on the autobox the revs would climb higher as I went to shift gear. Obviously I'd never flat shift in a manual so that might explain it. I'd pull the paddle but the revs would climb higher by the time the box shifted up to the next gear. So stuff like that wouldn't help I guess. 

 

I honestly don't know if you are supposed to lift as you shift up with an auto, but I really have never driven an auto on track before Keith's car. 

 

(You're up early this morning)

 

That might be the answer... I had noticed a tendency for delayed shift myself but had catered for it by changing earlier... I'd got used to it..

 

Flat foot shifting is a strength of the autobox, as is autoblip..

 

Spec K

[Special K 442]

Keith, great, interesting thread..

 

You may have said already, but i missed it.. are you on the stock Rad? Which Oil cooler are you using?

 

If you check out the FT86 Forums, you'll find that there is a company in the US making a small washer bottle, I have one off Steve's car, which you can borrow if you like, just to see if it's what you need?

 

Dave at Fensport fitted it for Steve, so he'll remember all about it.

 

I am running the stock radiator - I might change this - and I cannot remember which oil cooler I am using, it's a standard item from Fensport.

 

Thanks for the offer - I wil lcheck with Adiran, see if it would help.

 

Spec K

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

My thoughts at the moment;

 

We are looking in depth to oiling issues on the FA20 @ the moment

 

1 , Why is there such a difference in cold and hot oil pressures even if the oil pressure release valve spring pressure is consistent?

2 , Oil temp is read after the oil filer together with oil pressure warning light

3 , Is it true that it is said that the cam control cant cope with thicker than 0w30 oil as plenty of people are using a thicker oil and having no issues.

4 , Running a thicker oil will help hot oil pressures but running a thicker oil temp can cause to high oil pressure when cold

5 , Running a bigger engine radiator to keep the coolant temp cooler will also make the oil temp run at a lower temp.

6 , Running an oil cooler with cause pressure drop to resistance across the cooler also pressure drop will be in relation to oil cooler size

7 , We have notice a few off the oil ways need some work to help flow in the motor.

8 , The stock crankshaft has a strange oil drilling set up for Number 2 and 3 big end bearing supply which we feel will require more oil pressure a HKS stroker kit has a better drilling set up

      that will cope with lower oil pressure

9 , the Accumulator is just an Accusump that a lot of Subaru tuners advise track cars to run to stop oil surge , the issue with a flat 4 engine is the oil can run up under the pistons area very

     easily under High G loadings

10, Revs make more heat.

11, More oil capacity will help both surge and oil temp control

12, to be continued

 

thanks

[Ade 517]

My thoughts at the moment;

 

We are looking in depth to oiling issues on the FA20 @ the moment

 

1 , Why is there such a difference in cold and hot oil pressures even if the oil pressure release valve spring pressure is consistent?

2 , Oil temp is read after the oil filer together with oil pressure warning light

3 , Is it true that it is said that the cam control cant cope with thicker than 0w30 oil as plenty of people are using a thicker oil and having no issues.

4 , Running a thicker oil will help hot oil pressures but running a thicker oil temp can cause to high oil pressure when cold

5 , Running a bigger engine radiator to keep the coolant temp cooler will also make the oil temp run at a lower temp.

6 , Running an oil cooler with cause pressure drop to resistance across the cooler also pressure drop will be in relation to oil cooler size

7 , We have notice a few off the oil ways need some work to help flow in the motor.

8 , The stock crankshaft has a strange oil drilling set up for Number 2 and 3 big end bearing supply which we feel will require more oil pressure a HKS stroker kit has a better drilling set up

      that will cope with lower oil pressure

9 , the Accumulator is just an Accusump that a lot of Subaru tuners advise track cars to run to stop oil surge , the issue with a flat 4 engine is the oil can run up under the pistons area very

     easily under High G loadings

10, Revs make more heat.

11, More oil capacity will help both surge and oil temp control

12, to be continued

 

thanks

 

A few comments:

 

1) The pressure relief value is there to stop oil pressure going astronomically high at low temp/higher revs (along with the tooth profile of the oil gear). It doesnt regulate very well. At low oil temps, the difference between idle/low revs and 7k rpms is not much. Even at 100C the oil pressure tops out at about 5krpms and stays there all the way to 7.5k.

 

At very high oil temps I dont think the pressure release valve does much at all.

 

3) I think its rubbish. TMG would not recommend 10W60 if this was the case nor would toyota/subaru engineer something with tolerances so close that it would stop the AVSC working if you went above a W30. W60 isnt twice the thickness after all. I've heard about dealers sticking 5W40 in GT86s... (probably thinking it was the right oil)

 

4) In uk climate a 5W40 should be fine. You probably wont see an increase in pressure at startup (cold) because the release valve will be active, but I think the main compromise is the oil pressure around town when oil temps are 90-100C where pressure will be quite a bit higher than a W20. Probably not dangerously higher but it will affect fuel economy if you care!

 

5) All the data I have seen shows the coolant temp rock solid at 93C (as designed with the stock themostat) even with +40% power. Stateside I think guys running +400hp saw coolant temps going above 95C which indicates the thermostat is fully open and thus the cooling system is at full capacity.

 

Cosworth fit a lower temp thermostat as part of stage 1. That may help oil temps a bit?

 

6) You want an oil cooler with a larger cross sectional area (relative to oil flow not the front face where the air passes through). So short and fat, rather than thin and long. The more oil vanes in the cooler, and the shorter they are, the less it will resist flow.

 

9) Unless you are running R compound tyres the stock sump has a decent enough baffle it seems. I havent heard of any oil starvation issues running road legal tyres? Again I refer to the TMG CS-V3 car. It runs slicks and they dont have any extra baffling.

 

Not sure a better sump is required. Having said that, the extra surface area and capacity might be a worthwile investment.

 

This is where a pressure guage is important. On long high G curves, keep an eye on the oil pressure guage. If you see oil pressure drop massively its likely because the oil pickup in the sum is not getting any oil. You might be okay if it happens a few times but repeatedly and the bareings will be donefore.

 

11) I "over fill" mine. I put in about 6 litres.

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

1) The pressure relief value is there to stop oil pressure going astronomically high at low temp/higher revs (along with the tooth profile of the oil gear). It doesnt regulate very well. At low oil temps, the difference between idle/low revs and 7k rpms is not much. Even at 100C the oil pressure tops out at about 5krpms and stays there all the way to 7.5k.

 

At very high oil temps I dont think the pressure release valve does much at all.

 

Pressure release valve will be designed to work at all temps  i now have a front cover split and working on how it all works and why it does what it does.

 

3) I think its rubbish. TMG would not recommend 10W60 if this was the case nor would toyota/subaru engineer something with tolerances so close that it would stop the AVSC working if you went above a W30. W60 isnt twice the thickness after all. I've heard about dealers sticking 5W40 in GT86s... (probably thinking it was the right oil)

 

This is just what i have read

 

4) In uk climate a 5W40 should be fine. You probably wont see an increase in pressure at startup (cold) because the release valve will be active, but I think the main compromise is the oil pressure around town when oil temps are 90-100C where pressure will be quite a bit higher than a W20. Probably not dangerously higher but it will affect fuel economy if you care!

 

I think a 0w50 would be away forward in the cold and in the summer a 10w50 weighted oil I think with a little work could limit RPM at cold oil temps to control RPM until oil temp is over a certain level if needed.

 

5) All the data I have seen shows the coolant temp rock solid at 93C (as designed with the stock themostat) even with +40% power. Stateside I think guys running +400hp saw coolant temps going above 95C which indicates the thermostat is fully open and thus the cooling system is at full capacity.

 

Cosworth fit a lower temp thermostat as part of stage 1. That may help oil temps a bit?

 

interested infomation

 

6) You want an oil cooler with a larger cross sectional area (relative to oil flow not the front face where the air passes through). So short and fat, rather than thin and long. The more oil vanes in the cooler, and the shorter they are, the less it will resist flow.

 

Don't understand this. I think the pressure drop will be in relation to area. most cooler are the same width (depth) Mocal make 2 lengths 115 and 235mm long and looks of different heights Vanes I presume you need internal for the oil to flow through?

 

9) Unless you are running R compound tyres the stock sump has a decent enough baffle it seems. I havent heard of any oil starvation issues running road legal tyres? Again I refer to the TMG CS-V3 car. It runs slicks and they dont have any extra baffling.

 

Stock sump HAS no baffles it is a truly rubbish design. it even encourages the oil to move away from the pick up due to the angled sides. Looking for a picture

 

Not sure a better sump is required. Having said that, the extra surface area and capacity might be a worthwile investment.

 

This is where a pressure guage is important. On long high G curves, keep an eye on the oil pressure guage. If you see oil pressure drop massively its likely because the oil pickup in the sum is not getting any oil. You might be okay if it happens a few times but repeatedly and the bareings will be donefore.

 

 

 

11) I "over fill" mine. I put in about 6 litres.

 

This isn't a good idea as over filling will allow the crank to airate the oil more so cause pressure drop.

 

 

 

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[Ade 517]

Regarding oil cooler, we both mean the same thing. A 115mm cooler with lots of vains is better than 235 with half the number of vanes.

 

The sump itself doesnt have baffling, but directly above where it is fitted there is a baffle. I cant seem to find any info on the TMG car sump, but I swear it doesnt have any modifications last time I looked.

 

Putting 1/2 litre extra is okay (its not that easy to figure out the level from the dipstick anyway) especially is most of the time on track the sump is running a bit lower than normal.

 

Adrian did mention he puts a bit more in. Not sure how much though.

[Guest]

I'm sure 1/2 a litre will be fine. The intermediate sump is quite thick, around 40mm from memory? The crank doesn't stick through it from memory?

If you look at my engine build thread in the "Niges daily driver" thread you'll see pictures of the bottom end stripped, also the massive hole from the sump up into the front cover.

I can see the oil rushing into the front cover and staying there when braking into a corner then powering through it.

BTW I sent you a pm but you haven't read it yet Mark.

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

I will have some pictures soon of a few things I have found.

The baffle on the intermediate isn't worth being called a baffle there is far to many ways for the oil to take a runner from the pick up.

Nigel will ring you tomorrow to discuss

[Special K 442]

I am running the stock radiator - I might change this - and I cannot remember which oil cooler I am using, it's a standard item from Fensport.

 

Thanks for the offer - I wil lcheck with Adiran, see if it would help.

 

Spec K

 

Correction - I am fitted with the Mishimoto water rad (did I spell it right?)

 

Spec K

[Special K 442]

I am no longer sure how much of this thread is based on heresay/theory  and how much is based on experience.

 

Question - have either of you tracked your GT86, kitted out in the way you propound, with the oils/coolers you deem appropriate?

 

And, if you haven't, is this a truly beneficial discussion to the GT86DC?

 

Spec K