Oil Discussions

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

Spec,

Yes we don't track our GT but I am trying to help owners out with my experience.

We built/developed a few vehicles for track work and my time working in motorsport has helped me look into and work out a fix for issues on our cars.

We are understanding these motors a lot more and are working to develop these excellent motors.

Thanks

[Ade 517]

Spec K is right. I'll just confirm the TMG car has the stock oil Sump (got a close look today) and then I wont share anymore

 

But yes I do track (hence the 139C oil temp and 40PSI oil pressure!), yes I do have 5W40 in my car. No oil cooler yet though - need measurements of the cossy manifold first.

[GT86Jay 202]

I've been taking note of the oil temps and pressures over the journey. Driving it hard / steady, motorway and sprint style driving on b-roads. 

 

My Oil temp gauge is taken off the oil filter sandwich plate. And is accurate and identical to the ECU Oil Temp reading. Oil Pressure is taken off the same port as the stock oil pressure switch.

 

Oil Temps

I use the Millers 0W30 CFS Fully Synthetic Oil, with the HKS Type S Oil Cooler with hoses of about 1.7m long. What I've noticed is steady driving, cruising around I never see over 80c Oil temp. Driving it hard i've seen peaks of about 90c and on one Sunday chasing a RS4 and an RX7 we saw 102c on a very hot day. I've never been able to get them past 110c. 

 

Oil pressures 

Oil Pressures once hot always sit at around 4.5 Bar when sticking to speed limits and cruising around etc   Idles at 1.2 bar and peaks at about 5 bar under full throttle to red line. When cold the pressure sits at 8 Bar. I've never seen my oil pressures over 10 Bar off the scale and never seen them drop below 1 bar even when really hot. 

 

The journey was about an hour and all readings where taken holding the car at a steady speed...

 

RPM -    Speed -  Oil temp C -  Oil Pressure - Gear

2000rpm - 50mph, 76 degrees, 3 bar, 6th gear

3500rpm - 86mph, 75 degrees, 5 bar, 6th gear 

5000rpm - 90 mph, 80 degrees, 5 bar, 6th gear 

5000rpm - 120 mph, 80 degrees, 5 bar, 6th gear 

3500rpm - 86mph, 86 degrees, 4 bar, 6th gear

 

I'm going to do a couple of other tests where I blank off the oil cooler air intake to see how much work the cooler is doing etc. 

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

Jay, thanks for that , seems running an oil cooler helps keep the cold oil temp under control.

[smudge 1020]

 

I've been taking note of the oil temps and pressures over the journey. Driving it hard / steady, motorway and sprint style driving on b-roads. 

 

My Oil temp gauge is taken off the oil filter sandwich plate. And is accurate and identical to the ECU Oil Temp reading. Oil Pressure is taken off the same port as the stock oil pressure switch.

 

Oil Temps

I use the Millers 0W30 CFS Fully Synthetic Oil, with the HKS Type S Oil Cooler with hoses of about 1.7m long. What I've noticed is steady driving, cruising around I never see over 80c Oil temp. Driving it hard i've seen peaks of about 90c and on one Sunday chasing a RS4 and an RX7 we saw 102c on a very hot day. I've never been able to get them past 110c. 

 

Oil pressures 

Oil Pressures once hot always sit at around 4.5 Bar when sticking to speed limits and cruising around etc   Idles at 1.2 bar and peaks at about 5 bar under full throttle to red line. When cold the pressure sits at 8 Bar. I've never seen my oil pressures over 10 Bar off the scale and never seen them drop below 1 bar even when really hot. 

 

The journey was about an hour and all readings where taken holding the car at a steady speed...

 

RPM -    Speed -  Oil temp C -  Oil Pressure - Gear

2000rpm - 50mph, 76 degrees, 3 bar, 6th gear

3500rpm - 86mph, 75 degrees, 5 bar, 6th gear 

5000rpm - 90 mph, 80 degrees, 5 bar, 6th gear 

5000rpm - 120 mph, 80 degrees, 5 bar, 6th gear 

3500rpm - 86mph, 86 degrees, 4 bar, 6th gear

 

I'm going to do a couple of other tests where I blank off the oil cooler air intake to see how much work the cooler is doing etc. 

 

 

Those temps are very low! Mine sits at around 95 degrees on a motorway cruise, let's see what difference my oil cooler makes once I get it fitted

[GT86Jay 202]

It's what I see. Off throttle with hadly any load and lots of cold air over the cooler. They're going to be fairly low. Soon as I get on the gas they creep up.

 

You don't have a cooler right? 

[smudge 1020]

It's what I see. Off throttle with hadly any load and lots of cold air over the cooler. They're going to be fairly low. Soon as I get on the gas they creep up.

 

You don't have a cooler right? 

 

I have one but it's not yet fitted to the car

[GT86Jay 202]

I have one but it's not yet fitted to the car

 

It'll probably do a better job at cooling your oil once its on the car then... Probably why your temps are a bit higher. 

[smudge 1020]

It'll probably do a better job at cooling your oil once its on the car then... Probably why your temps are a bit higher. 

 

I doubt it's doing much for the temps whilst it's sitting in the box

 

Is yours a thermostatic cooler Jay? Does the sandwich plate have a thermostat that controls how active the cooler is?

[GT86Jay 202]

Yeah it's thermostatic. 

 

I believe it gradually opens and then is fully open at 75c. I see my temps creep up to 80c then drop back to 75c and are steady around 75 - 80 cruising around..

 

When I had my bumper off to test the cooler it was actually too effective. And it caused my temps to drop to around about 60 - 65c. So the restrictive fog light whole actually seems to help keep temperatures up a little bit.

[Ade 517]

IMO those oil temps are too low. You really need to get as close as possible to 100C to boil off any water. Toyota did thousands of hours of R&D and they designed the engine to run close to 100C at crusing temps.

 

The problem with thermostatic sandwich plates is that 1) they open at too low a temp and 2) they have leakage even when the thermostat is switched off.

 

You dont need an oil cooler if you are sprinting or daily driving. Its 20min+ track sessions that you have the problem massive oil temperatures.

 

The best oil cooler for daily driving and sprinting is the FA20 DIT conversion (as fitted to the subaru forester) which has an oil to water element. What that means is the oil heats up quicker (the water heats it up to approx 90C) then once it goes higher than the water, it is cooled. Do I ahve data? no? is it heresay? think what you want but thats what subaru engineers did to a turbocharged FA20.

[rob275 1817]

Mine generally floats around 95-105 on the road, track sees me at 130+, I need a cooler, but i keep spending my money on pointless crap.

[Guest]

I agree with GT86 owner on this one.

80 degrees is too cold for oil temps, even in normal driving.

I can see the point in having a thermostat, not only does it get the oil hotter quicker, it protects the cooler from the massive cold pressures, (which is where a dry sump system comes in, the cooler can go in the scavenge circuit), but the thermostat ideally needs to be set at around 95 degrees.

Every car I've owned with an oil temp gauge runs at around 95 to 105 on road.

[GT86Jay 202]

Why is the oil temp such a big problem? I am more concerned about oil pressures. 

 

The oil pressures I'm seeing are around 4 bar once the oil is above 70+c. Even at 100c I still see the same oil pressures consistently? 

 

I've never seen my pressure sit below 4 bar when driving hard even on a hot day where the oil is around 100c. Is 4 bar too high? 

 

I'm no expert when it comes oil physics. But My understanding is that if I'm seeing 4 bar no matter what the temp after 75c what damage will it ever do by being 'too cold' when cruising.? I'm happier that once I get on the throttle and sprinting I'm sitting it around 95 - 100c to boil off any water and still see a consistent 4 bar. 

[Ade 517]

If the oil doesnt get hot enough, excess water in the oil will emulsify compromising its lubrication performance. In your case, its probably okay as long as you regularly get oil above 100C for a appreciable amount of time. It might be a problem if for a prolonged period of time, and many journeys, you dont get the oil above 100C.

 

 

Oil pressure starts dropping after 100C. As I stated befroe I was seeing ~5Bar at 7k rpms at 100C with 0W20 (no cooler)

 

Unfortunately at 130C this dropped to abot 3.5Bar and at 139C (max temp I reached on track) less than 3Bar.

 

It is a bit concerning entering a fast, long corner at high revs and looking at your 10Bar guage and seeing 2.5Bar!

[Lauren 2259]

Jay, I don't think you'll have an issue if all you are doing is road driving for the most part, unless you absolutely hammer it for a long period and I mean really going fast. 100C is not getting the oil too hot really. 

 

Also it's not a mega issue on track, I saw 125C on a very hot day at Donny, but really unless you are staying out for a long period, it's probably not a big issue really. But long track sesions perhaps are more cause for concern. I tend to do no longer than ten minutes at a time on track but I don't do many trackdays. Sprinting is a non-issue really. 

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

Yes I am at work today a Sunday, but reading up on some information on oil coolers today seems the bigger the oil cooler the less pressure drop we will see as there is more cross section area on the fins is larger so less pressure drop;

[LFA 68]

I am no longer sure how much of this thread is based on heresay/theory  and how much is based on experience.

 

Question - have either of you tracked your GT86, kitted out in the way you propound, with the oils/coolers you deem appropriate?

 

And, if you haven't, is this a truly beneficial discussion to the GT86DC?

 

Spec K

Keith; Mark and I are very focused on managing this issue

I think anyone who tracks their car, has any degree of g enhancing goodies, or heat producing ones for that matter, needs to be conversant with the risks as laid out in this great thread.

[Special K 442]

Keith; Mark and I are very focused on managing this issue

I think anyone who tracks their car, has any degree of g enhancing goodies, or heat producing ones for that matter, needs to be conversant with the risks as laid out in this great thread.

 

Thanks Ed. (Good to see you posting again..)

 

I don't think the risks as ".. laid out.." in regards to cooling issues give the full picture so far.

 

And, with respect to both you and Mark, none of us is sufficiently experienced in this subject, so the picture changes.

 

I think it is necessary that guys like you, Mark, Adrian (and to a lesser degree myself),  who are pushing these boundaries, should be giving information to aspiring owners. That's why this Forum is called a 'Drivers Club' and I for one have no issues in sharing my experiences.

 

Hominids would have not evolved into sapiens without interbreeding... mentally as well as physically.. And today's ultimate sapiens is a GT86 (1) owner !!

 

(1) Oh, okay... I'll give BRZ a close runner-up..

 

 

 

Spec K

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spec K

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

Been measuring our Reimax oil pump rotors up now they have arrived;

 

They are dimensional perfect measured against a stock GT86 oil pump gear.

 

Keith can I ask why I am not experienced in this subject please?

[Guest]

Been measuring our Reimax oil pump rotors up now they have arrived;

 

They are dimensional perfect measured against a stock GT86 oil pump gear.

 

Was that a new stock pump you measured Mark? As mentioned before, my Reimax matched a new pump perfectly, but was smaller on O/D compared to used pumps??

 

I will be very interested to see what results you get with this pump, as you'll probably be using yours before mine even gets fitted?

[Special K 442]

Been measuring our Reimax oil pump rotors up now they have arrived;

 

They are dimensional perfect measured against a stock GT86 oil pump gear.

 

Keith can I ask why I am not experienced in this subject please?

 

Mark - I did not say you were 'not experienced' - I said ".. none of us is sufficiently experienced..." -

 

- and I am not going to have an argument over it, I stand by my statement.

 

 

Nigel compared the 'swept volumes'  on his original Reimax pump purchase.

 

Have you done the same? Did you have any of the previous offering to compare? Did you install any?

 

 

 

Spec K

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

Mark - I did not say you were 'not experienced' - I said ".. none of us is sufficiently experienced..." -

 

- and I am not going to have an argument over it, I stand by my statement.

 

 

Nigel compared the 'swept volumes'  on his original Reimax pump purchase.

 

Have you done the same? Did you have any of the previous offering to compare? Did you install any?

 

 

 

Spec K

 

 

Spec K , okay I miss understood the "us" very sorry;

 

We will have a oil pump in a car very soon , think it will be our own car at 1st , we have made a big head way on understanding the FA20 oiling issues the last month or so.

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

Spec, outside diameter of the Reimax oil pump gears are just 1/2 thou undersize from a new stock Toyota Oil pump gear.

[Ade 517]

Yes I am at work today a Sunday, but reading up on some information on oil coolers today seems the bigger the oil cooler the less pressure drop we will see as there is more cross section area on the fins is larger so less pressure drop;

 

 

6) You want an oil cooler with a larger cross sectional area (relative to oil flow not the front face where the air passes through). So short and fat, rather than thin and long. The more oil vanes in the cooler, and the shorter they are, the less it will resist flow.

 

I'm waiting on you mark to put together a resonably priced kit (that also fits infront of the Cosworth radiatior......)

 

Mocal can do a custom thermostatic sandwich plates. I reckon 100C opening temp would be a ideal....