Deacons '86

[Deacon 1357]

I've emailed through the tss Web site and asked the question. As I said, I don't really see why edfc would be ok in street class and remote reservoirs not.

[Lauren 2259]

To a point it's more likely about cost, I would say and keeping the class competitive. A coilover setup like your's at the cost it is, would be seen as very much more into the professional category. These are meant to be road cars in the N1 Street class after all. If everyone had to spend £4K on a coilover setup it would put people off. The Pro class is for those who want to spend the spondulas and be racing drivers and all that.

[Deacon 1357]

They are street coilovers going on a street car though? They will improve the ride not the track performance. To be honest it's a moot point for me anyway as I'm very unlikely to do the tss.

[Lauren 2259]

I think you've missed my point about cost. But if you're not bothered about doing the TSS anyway, is there any point in discussing it? 

[Deacon 1357]

I didn't bring the tss up - you and Sam did.

In terms of cost a set of the tein monosports (for instance) and the edfc pro set up is just over £2k - hardly cheap! And that's before the fitting costs which are higher than normal coilovers.

[Tareim 343]

I only brought it up as I wasn't sure if you did it or not. I would've thought more suspension travel is better than being able to adjust the dampening is more beneficial hence the different classes?

[Deacon 1357]

3 minutes ago, Tareim said:

I only brought it up as I wasn't sure if you did it or not. I would've thought more suspension travel is better than being able to adjust the dampening is more beneficial hence the different classes?

More travel shouldn't make a huge difference on most tracks (apart from things like the nurburgring!) And the adjustbality is theoretically no different to on a set of kwv3's for instance. 

Where these should excel is on the road - especially bumpy a and b roads as you'll be able to run them soft and still keep lots of travel without riding the bump stops (as Ade said).

[Tareim 343]

and those benefits on the road should also work on the track as not every track is silky smooth, you could tackle the kerbs without unsettling the car as much on a softer setup gaining an advantage

[Deacon 1357]

3 minutes ago, Tareim said:

and those benefits on the road should also work on the track as not every track is silky smooth, you could tackle the kerbs without unsettling the car as much on a softer setup gaining an advantage

But then loose the advantage on corners with the extra roll potentially. Swings and roundabouts - no one set up will suit everything. Ideally you'd swap springs and set ups for every event but obviously that's not realistic in the real world.

[Ade 517]

I agree with Jeff, the extra travel isnt that beneficial one most tracks. I mean I haven't yet hit the bumpstops hard on my Ohlins at the track which are travel limited for fast back roads really. 

Its the dampening quality that gets you the extra grip.

I think external reservoir is a moot point really for race events. You can buy a cheapish set of BCs with external reservoirs but the valving is not the same as these Motons or the Ohlins TTX stuff. 

Better to put a price limit on the suspension rather than banning external reservoirs in my opinion. 

p.s. roll is not a bad thing and neither is a soft spring. Most aftermarket coilovers, expensive stuff included, have the spring rates they do because they are travel limited. Sure if you are running 245 Pirelli slicks then you need a firm spring like 10k  or so (TMG race car for example) but normal road legal semi slicks and lots of damper travel, 7kg will likely be more than enough spring. 

@Deacon - pics please!!!

 

 

 

 

 

[Deacon 1357]

Will do @Ade

I'm at moton in the morning about 10.30 for the day to try some spring set ups and settle on what works best. Plan then is I'll go home and try it on my local roads and then go back again, if needs be, to tweek the spring rates further.

[Ade 517]

@Deacon - do you have any specification for bump travel? I've got a suspension spreadsheet for bump and droop calculations and @DanJ has a niffty roll stiffness spreadsheet that includes roll bar calculations so you can make sure you keep the roll stiffness distribution front to back the same as you move around the spring rates. 

You'll quickly see, that a 5kg F/R setup does not have the same roll stiffness balance front to rear, as a 7kg f/r setup for example. 

PM me if interested.

[Deacon 1357]

2 hours ago, Ade said:

@Deacon - do you have any specification for bump travel? I've got a suspension spreadsheet for bump and droop calculations and @DanJ has a niffty roll stiffness spreadsheet that includes roll bar calculations so you can make sure you keep the roll stiffness distribution front to back the same as you move around the spring rates. 

You'll quickly see, that a 5kg F/R setup does not have the same roll stiffness balance front to rear, as a 7kg f/r setup for example. 

PM me if interested.

Sadly @Ade I don't have those details available.

[Deacon 1357]

So I had the Motons fitted last Thursday and was able to grab a few pictures which I thought I'd add here.

Motons ready to go on:-

Comparison of a front Moton and front Flex A:-

Comparison of the rears:-

Comparison between a whiteline adjustable droplink on the right and a moton one on the left:-

Rear remote reservoir location:-

I also grabbed a couple of pictures of the 911 GT3 brake ducts that were fitted a while ago.

Final picture shows the deflector on the front bumper (right on the picture) fitted as stock and how this guides the air towards the GT3 brake ducts (left on the picture) which then guide it towards the brakes themselves:-

[Lauren 2259]

Looks like a nice bit of kit. How does it drive? 

[Deacon 1357]

1 hour ago, Lauren said:

Looks like a nice bit of kit. How does it drive? 

At the moment it's way too stiff for bumpy back road use but would make an excellent track setting.

This was version one to try though so I knew it was likely to need some more work. I'm back in on the 23rd for different springs (softer front and rear and longer front and rear) and helpers (softer to help keep the softer springs well seated) to be fitted and the gas pressure to be readjusted to suit the new set up.

[Deacon 1357]

So I spent the day with Moton yesterday sorting out version two.

The springs were changed to softer and longer front and rear (5kg front and 3kg rear after having tried 5/4 too). The rear helper springs were also removed as they were unnecessary with the longer springs on the rear, they remained at the front though.

The rear compression damping was reduced and the gas pressure was set to suit the new setup front and rear.

This is a marked improvement in ride quality for UK roads and circuits such as the nurburgring with big bumps, dips and compressions.

The rear reservoirs were also moved to a more out of the way location to protect them from weather and road debris better. Sadly it wasn't possible to mount them in the boot as I'd hoped as the grommets for the abs cables are not big enough to allow the reservoir hoses through too (they are 30mm hoses plus fittings) and I didn't want holes drilled in the boot floor.

I am testing these for the next two weeks when I will have the chance to sample them on normal roads, motorways and also at Curborough before going back again for version three.

The plan for version three is to change the valving and piston to soften the dampers off and then possibly step back up on the spring rates as there remains a little 'bounce' in the ride. There is also a noise at the rear moton want to eliminate.

I have to say dealing with AST / Moton has been an absolute pleasure and the thoroughness of their work is very impressive.

[Tareim 343]

that must be costing a lot of money to keep changing it

[Deacon 1357]

12 minutes ago, Tareim said:

that must be costing a lot of money to keep changing it

No as Moton want to get them 100%

[Tareim 343]

Fair enough then

Sent from my XT1572 using Tapatalk

[Ade 517]

That is a vary soft rear rate. Stock GT86 is 3.7kg rear spring.

I'll see you late and hopefully we can have a chat 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Deacon 1357]

3 hours ago, Ade said:

That is a vary soft rear rate. Stock GT86 is 3.7kg rear spring.

I'll see you late and hopefully we can have a chat 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sadly I'm not well enough to make it today 😭

I was somewhat doubtful on the spring suggestions too but it's definitely not too soft. In fact I think version three will be the way forwards as at present version two is still too stiff I think for the dreadful UK roads. The Motons really can support a very low (or indeed high) spring rate but revalving to a softer set up will be needed to really exploit them on bumpy B roads with possibly a slight increase in spring rate.

[Deacon 1357]

I forget to add the picture of the new rear remote reservoir positioning earlier:-

Should keep them better out of the way of dirt and debris.

[Deacon 1357]

Grabbed a quick picture today of how it's currently sitting on the Motons after I had it raised approximately 10mm when I was last there:-

[Deacon 1357]

Spent some of today at Moton to try some different springs.

Going really soft didn't really work - in fact it made the car quite harsh and disconnected. So today we tried the opposite and went pretty stiff on the spring rates - 9 front and 14 rear.

Common sense would suggest this should be horrific but it's actually much, much better. 14 is a little stiff for the rear however for road use so Moton are getting a selection of 10, 11, 12 and 13's in for us to try next time with the thoughts being it's probably going to end up as 9/11 or 10/12.

I'm honestly staggered by how good the ride is on those springs but then it's the sort of springs the Motons are made for. In fact while we were looking through the springs they have in stock they had some 26kg springs which they use with these dampers on some porsches!