TSS - Anglesey - 19th August

[Mike 458]

Some of the corners from Graeme's video look similar to what I was doing, some of them are like 10mph quicker though  

Had pathetic starts for all but the last 2 runs - first of those 2 I shaved off 1.5s which wouldn't surprise me if a lot was at the start. The 2nd of those and the final run I tried to sort out Seamans as I've always ran wide and pinched on the exit - lap was 0.1 quicker but I cocked up Rocket by changing into 4th instead of 2nd  so probably lost a chunk there too

FWIW, I ran with the TC off all day, especially on the advans, if you don't mash the throttle you should be fine even when it's greasy like it was in the morning

[KevinA 695]

1 hour ago, maurice said:

I think having the traction control on makes quite a big difference there Lauren. I had it on the first few runs and found it too frustrating on that first right hairpin, should have turned it fully off sooner. Doesn't seem to slow Graeme or Kevin down, but can't make it work with my driving. I wonder if it's to do with having higher spring rates in the rear.

I too had it all turned off, I have too much grip and VLC would interfere. 

[GraemeI 41]

10 hours ago, Cerastes said:

Nice videos. Was your car full of poo after that slide lol? 

Fortunately not - there was a brief moment where I considered my evacuation options, but once I worked out I could keep it on the inside of the circuit, I was less concerned

[GraemeI 41]

10 hours ago, Lauren said:

That was interesting to see Graeme. Your car seems to have so much more grip than mine. No sliding around, whereas I was over steering in most of the corners. Probably where I lost time. Also interesting that you were in second for the first corner, I was taking in third. You must have been right on the limiter at the run up to Rocket. I was into fifth at the kink, hitting 116mph before hitting the brakes. 

Interesting to know @Lauren.  I spent quite a bit of energy (and some cash) trying to eliminate my spurious oversteer, so that is very likely helping   For example, I do have some toe in on the rears to try keep them in check, whereas the conventional wisdom is to keep it zero toe.  It's not like the car has no oversteer, as you can see it coming about a couple of times, probably more so in my other laps, but I have basically tried to eliminate understeer, but also reduce tendency for the back to come out.  Makes the car a bit less 'fun' or playful at the rear, but faster on track - for me anyway.  I never drive close enough to the limit on the road for it to come into play anyway, apart from wet wintery days.

I was right on the limiter coming into Rocket - about 113mph. I only tried 5th once, missed and got 3rd, so next time out, left it in 4th   Very interesting you can do 3rd in the first corner (Bus stop?).  you heard me hit the limiter in both video's no doubt, but it was for such a short time, I figured I would stay in 2nd and use the extra drive out the corner so I hit the next one (Turn One?!) at a reasonable speed.  Same logic through Rocket and Peel, although as you can see, I misfired there and hit 4th instead of 2nd!

As far as traction control is concerned, I ran it with VSC off (when I didn't forget to press the button!!) partly because I know if it's triggering, I am probably not driving as smoothly as I should, and partly because I don't know most of the tracks, so a little bit of nanny in the background helps me keep my car in one piece to get to work in the morning (basically, I don't trust me yet!!).

 

[GraemeI 41]

6 hours ago, Mike said:

Had pathetic starts for all but the last 2 runs - first of those 2 I shaved off 1.5s which wouldn't surprise me if a lot was at the start. The 2nd of those and the final run I tried to sort out Seamans as I've always ran wide and pinched on the exit - lap was 0.1 quicker but I cocked up Rocket by changing into 4th instead of 2nd  so probably lost a chunk there too

FWIW, I ran with the TC off all day, especially on the advans, if you don't mash the throttle you should be fine even when it's greasy like it was in the morning

My starts were ok till the last 2 - lol - the opposite!

Sure you can see in the first video, I did same with 4th instead of 2nd in Peel.... 

You can also see through Seaman's I used the kerb on exit as I basically ran out of space  

TC was half off in both those video's, but I forgot it in my other runs till the first 3 corners where it ate all my power!

[GraemeI 41]

4 hours ago, KevinA said:

I too had it all turned off, I have too much grip and VLC would interfere. 

Stop bragging about all your grip @KevinA - I barely have a grip at all

Oh, wait, that's a different mental health type conversation.... Sorry.... Carry on....  

[GraemeI 41]

6 hours ago, maurice said:

I think having the traction control on makes quite a big difference there Lauren. I had it on the first few runs and found it too frustrating on that first right hairpin, should have turned it fully off sooner. Doesn't seem to slow Graeme or Kevin down, but can't make it work with my driving. I wonder if it's to do with having higher spring rates in the rear.

What symptoms you having @maurice?  Just rear end coming round on you? 

What spring rates you running?  I am using the same as Lauren I think - 5kg front, 6kg rear, but that's not a direct translation, as the multilink on the rear divides that down a bit to an equivalent 4.x kgs or so, so technically softer rear to front, but that's another conversation!

[Lauren 2259]

@GraemeI everyone runs toe in on the rear. I've tried toe out, but it's simply dangerous, not worth doing. Parallel toe is the default setting for the front only. 

[KevinA 695]

Not the best video but only a dash cam.

[GraemeI 41]

16 minutes ago, KevinA said:

Not the best video but only a dash cam.

Thanks for sharing Kevin - always good to see someone elses laps too

Sooo much grippppp and speeeed! 

I see you turn into Church about 3mph slower than I do Kevin - what's that about!?  You come out at about the same speed, but surely you should be able to fling it in there, like the other corners where you just fly round, like the (incorrectly named) Turn 1 (2!) where you go through at 80mph - 10mph faster than I could manage!

Maybe your self preservation instincts are stronger than mine - lol  

[GraemeI 41]

44 minutes ago, Lauren said:

@GraemeI everyone runs toe in on the rear. I've tried toe out, but it's simply dangerous, not worth doing. Parallel toe is the default setting for the front only. 

Great correction, and accurate too - thanks @Lauren   I got the two ends mixed up for parallel toe!

A bit more detail is useful in this case  I am running slightly higher toe in the rear and some in front too (which appears to be helping loads with front end turn in and grip, along with the camber).  This of course usually 'lightens' the rear, hence the adjustment both ends

For what it's worth, I have total toe in the front of 0.21' (0 degrees 21 minutes - can't write the degrees symbol!), and rear of 0.16', so only just over stock recommendation of 0.10' (from memory?)

Front camber is 2.24' (L) and 2.15' (R).  Rear camber is 1.18' (L) and 1.38' (R).

 

[KevinA 695]

Glad you found it mildly interesting @GraemeI good for reference, Church was a corner my set up didn't really like the entry of but didn't lose too much overall. The rest was fairly calm, video doesn't really show the pace that we experience. The passenger laps at the end were more revealing 

[GraemeI 41]

2 hours ago, KevinA said:

Glad you found it mildly interesting @GraemeI good for reference, Church was a corner my set up didn't really like the entry of but didn't lose too much overall. The rest was fairly calm, video doesn't really show the pace that we experience. The passenger laps at the end were more revealing 

More than mildly interesting @KevinA!!  With no prior points of reference, or having driven any other car than my own, everything is learning for me.  I wish I could spend days working off a 'stock' setup and making each little change to see what it does, including tyre choice, geo setups, suspension settings and so on, but time and practicality don't allow that, so every time out is a multi mix of changes, trial and error!

I am loving it, but would love other reference points, be it driving style, car setup or whatever else!  Each track we go to is new to me, so half my driver training goes out the window too, as I am so focused on the next point (because I don't know where it is half the time!!!), I am forgetting to look ahead, forgetting my trail braking, forgetting my braking points etc!  

Fortunately for me, my instinctual driving is half decent (in my own opinion of course -  ), otherwise I would be in real trouble!

Maybe swapping some driving experience and sessions in each others cars would be more revealing next time?

[Montatron 15]

I really need to get myself to one of these! Keep seeing the pictures and every time think "that looks a bit fun" 😜

[Lauren 2259]

Graeme, the best way to compare is to do a track day together. Plenty of time to get rides with others and all that really helps. To be fair, you seem to doing alright though!

I was hoping there would be a trackday before the last sprint at Snetterton as I've never driven the 300 circuit before. But alas there isn't. Other way is to organise a track day like we did at Blyton Park last year, or it can be somewhere else of course. Cadwell is always a good one. 

That is a reasonable amount of toe in. I wouldn't normally expect toe in on the front to help with turn in, particularly. A lot of people have tried toe out on the front to help the agility of turn in. I run a little less toe in on the rear than you at 6 minutes a side and my front parallel. I think the camber helps a lot with turn in on the front, I run 2.5 degrees and 1.75 degrees on the rear. I too was struggling through Church, finding that I'd get a mixture of understeer on turn in, through to some oversteer on the exit. Overall it was quite neutral though, the understeer was obviously because I was trying to carry too much speed in and didn't want to get off the throttle. Peel and Seamans were the other two corners I struggle with as a similar thing happens, and nailig the turn in to Peel is really tricky and the camber doesn't help you. Seamans is the same problem in reverse as it being downhill and the camber falling away makes it very hard to get a clean line through there without a whole load of sliding around in the middle. I often found I had oversteer on the exit, which is a pain when you've got a straight ahead of you!

[GraemeI 41]

As you say - pity there is no track day before Snetterton - I was hoping the same!   I wanted to try do one before a race so I at least know the track beforehand!

Thank you for saying I am doing alright (self assessment not always accurate!), but I know I always have more to learn, and it's interesting to see the differences regardless of whether I am doing ok or not 

Back to the handling, I didn't have any understeer going into Church, which is interesting in itself.  As you saw, when I turned in on the throttle, I lost the back end instead!  What speed were you turning into Church? I was doing about 133-136km/h from what I can see from my faster laps.

I would love to know what difference the tyres are making as well as the setups.  I definitely have less oversteer than you, as I didn't have any through Seamans, but was probably carrying less speed than you too.  I did have oversteer through Peel, but found if I slowed down enough before turning in and then being careful on the throttle, I was ok through there, but do I think I compromised the exit on the way out the right hand part.  You can here me swear at myself as I messed it up on my fastest lap - lol

[Lauren 2259]

I think my speed on turn in was similar to yours. Exit speed was around 145kmh IIRC. I know I was pulling 186kmh before braking before Rocket. I think the tyres are making a difference here. Tomas and I agree that the PS4 are a better tyre. That is not to detract from your wins of course, but he has noticed differences at other circuits and feels that the PS4 have the advantage here. I was lifting before turning in to Church, then getting hard on the throttle, which is what I would say was causing the understeer. It was very hard to get that turn in spot on as its later than you think. I know when I got it right as I could run the kerbing on the inside, but too much speed, would mean I would go a little wide of the apex. As you know the car tends to get into a four wheel slide (inertia drift for Initial D fans) and it's hoping that the timing is right to keep the wheel relatively straight and keep the throttle mashed to the floor all the way through the exit. At times I had oversteer on the exit. It's a tricky corner to get right for sure!

Seamans, same problem, just me trying to carry too much speed, which did mean it got a bit wild on the exit at times with a whole load of oversteer on the exit. Not what you want really. 

[Mike 458]

7 minutes ago, Lauren said:

Seamans, same problem, just me trying to carry too much speed, which did mean it got a bit wild on the exit at times with a whole load of oversteer on the exit. Not what you want really. 

I heard you going round there on the fun runs... then again I think the whole of the circuit did  

[KevinA 695]

Some interesting points, Croft next so another fast circuit with I guess much the same challenges  

[surrey86 352]

19 hours ago, GraemeI said:

What symptoms you having @maurice?  Just rear end coming round on you? 

What spring rates you running?  I am using the same as Lauren I think - 5kg front, 6kg rear, but that's not a direct translation, as the multilink on the rear divides that down a bit to an equivalent 4.x kgs or so, so technically softer rear to front, but that's another conversation!

Just the VSC being too intrusive on the first right handed, it was costing me exit speed. With everything off there was no sliding for the same entry speed so the VSC was being rubbish!

Tbf I could hear it going nuts on your video as well but you were going ok, that said I still think it cost you time as I was faster with it off.

[Cerastes 204]

Interesting video @KevinA nice to compare against @GraemeI video. 

 

[GraemeI 41]

7 hours ago, maurice said:

Just the VSC being too intrusive on the first right handed, it was costing me exit speed. With everything off there was no sliding for the same entry speed so the VSC was being rubbish!

Tbf I could hear it going nuts on your video as well but you were going ok, that said I still think it cost you time as I was faster with it off.

Can't figure out whether to say turned it on or off tbh!  The lights on the dash come on when choosing VSC Sport mode, which theoretically turns off some parts of the traction control, but leaves on stability control....  I didn't have it interfere when I did a clean corner, only when I was getting way over-enthusiastic on the throttle too early. It didn't interfere otherwise.

I never ran with with anything other than VSC Sport mode, so never turned everything Off Off

When I forgot to press any buttons, it went mental in all the corners, first, second, third, fourth etc etc.  On my fastest one, I remembered to press the VSC Sport button first, so it didn't pull power anywhere that I remember.  Occasionally I get the light flashing, but it didn't pull any power - I think that's a reminder that the traction control would have been interfering if I didn't press the button first  

[GraemeI 41]

10 hours ago, Mike said:

I heard you going round there on the fun runs... then again I think the whole of the circuit did  

^^^

This  

There was a lot of enthusiasm, for sure!!!

[GraemeI 41]

7 hours ago, KevinA said:

Some interesting points, Croft next so another fast circuit with I guess much the same challenges  

Hopefully that's a good thing! I was debating doing the track day before this one just to find out which way it goes too, but time is a challenge!

[Lauren 2259]

Do the track day before, if you can Graeme. Croft is a highly technical circuit. It's much more grippy than Anglesey and does kill tyres a bit. Barcroft is the bottle corner! Enjoy.