Tyre age and (lack of) traction

[Lauren 2259]

2 hours ago, Church said:

Don't know, maybe track specifics, or cheap tires i usually got, or my lacking driving skills or all of the above. Most often times i've been to small tracks (made for karting) with slow awg/max speed & tight/slow curves, eg. this or this, ones that are 95% driven in 2nd gear :). Only this year i got to "real" track too. (of course none of these videos are mine, just something googled up on those tracks).

Those kart tracks are only really any good for practicing drifting. So I think trying to drive them quickly is what's causing the issue. There's a reason why I don't drive on kart tracks. I've tried it though the UK is excellent for great circuits, so there is no need. Cheap tyres is another factor of course. That 'real' track looked good to be fair. 

It must be difficult though given your location. Is there much around there? 

 

[Lauren 2259]

Probably Summit. They are well proven by Fensport. Or perhaps the Cusco ones. I had my car polybushed (I've done 100K miles in it) at the same time the SPL arms were fitted. It made a huge difference. Okay certainly some inevitable wear in the OEM bushes after that mileage, but it really has made it feel better than new. I admit though, with the arms, thought I'd try some rose jointed ones see how I get on. The rear of my car is now very tight. 

[Church 209]

Lauren: Latvia is small country. Shown in 3rd video is only one real track here, and access to it is limited, as they usually only let reserve whole track (for lot of money as it's also for paying to firefighters/emergency medics/evacuator/people placed around the track/track closing off from cyclists/pedestrians), so first someone needs to organise many drivers to share expenses, instead of as with ability to go at those kart-tracks at any not-reserved time and paying small sum as individual to have a go. And such organised occasions are rare, like some rare forum meets, or local stock car racing "open-trainings" 5-7 times per season. Other closest "real track" alternatives mean going to tracks to nearby countries like Estonia or Lithuania.

[GraemeI 41]

Thanks Lauren.  Are these the Summit ones?

http://www.fensport.co.uk/parts/toyota/gt-86/zn6/chassis-tuning/gt86-swave-rear-camber-control-arms-pair/

I want to avoid additional harshness and cost right now so am debating the Whiteline or Eibach ones, but would consider more if it was taking me in the right direction rather than just fixing the immediate issue, which I have to do by Monday afternoon!

Argh, I hate not knowing what I am doing - lol

 

[Church 209]

BTW, now you are just searching for parts. I also advise to search for what would be advisable alignment settings you should ask shop to dial later on

[GraemeI 41]

Yes, that is definitely the next question.  I have to start with being able to make the adjustments first, then I can optimise them - at the moment they are just broken!  I was thinking of Lauren's suggestion as a starting point, but even those seem slightly more than I expected for road use, but with no further clues, I have to start somewhere!

12 hours ago, Lauren said:

Ideal settings for the road are 2 degrees negative on the front and 1.75 on the rear. You may not achieve that on the front with camber bolts though. 

[Church 209]

It's just camber. There is also toe. For that i suggest zero toe front, and slight toe-in rear, slight, as in total rear toe-in 0.1dg, as, though toe-in adds things like extra self-stabilizing (toe-out - on contrary - less stability, but sharper turning), handy to allow opening throttle sooner in curves, or eg. when wet or in winter for car to be more stable in acceleration, it also can make tires wear more, much more so then eg. extra camber - hence slight.

Also for front i suggest to limit yourself to using camberbolts, as you mentioned in some of posts that NVH and compliancy matters to you and it's mostly for street, and use stock rubber top mounts, not camberplates. Luckily they also are cheapest parts to add camber adjustability to front. And as you are setting up mostly for DD, their range should be sufficient. Cheapest way would be getting just SPC camberbolts for lower strut hole, and reuse OEM bolt that was there in top hole, or get SPC 81305 for lower + Whiteline KCA416 for upper. (but seeing your alignment numbers i guess that there already might be camberbolts used, as stock front camber is less).

[KevinA 695]

3 hours ago, Innersphere said:

Yes, that is definitely the next question.  I have to start with being able to make the adjustments first, then I can optimise them - at the moment they are just broken!  I was thinking of Lauren's suggestion as a starting point, but even those seem slightly more than I expected for road use, but with no further clues, I have to start somewhere!

Try and drive a car with all the mods on, you are not far from me and I have lots of kit fitted to the car. Might be an option for you also to look at the bits on a car in detail.

[Lauren 2259]

6 hours ago, Innersphere said:

Thanks Lauren.  Are these the Summit ones?

http://www.fensport.co.uk/parts/toyota/gt-86/zn6/chassis-tuning/gt86-swave-rear-camber-control-arms-pair/

I want to avoid additional harshness and cost right now so am debating the Whiteline or Eibach ones, but would consider more if it was taking me in the right direction rather than just fixing the immediate issue, which I have to do by Monday afternoon!

Argh, I hate not knowing what I am doing - lol

 

Those are the Summit ones. They won't cause any increase in harshness, that's not an issue. But money yes. You could just use offest bushes on the rear, much cheaper. Jeff said that there are some Whiteline ones that work like a camber bolt on the upper arms, so that might be a better option. Camber bolts for the front are cheap. 

[Lucas 244]

@Innersphere we have both Front camber bolts & rear camber bushes in stock. I can sort you out, with a club discount as well.

 

[GraemeI 41]

1 hour ago, Lucas@PartBox said:

@Innersphere we have both Front camber bolts & rear camber bushes in stock. I can sort you out, with a club discount as well.

 

Thanks Lucas, appreciate the offer, but I have the front camber bolts already and am leaning strongly towards the LCA instead of bushes for the back, mostly because the correction I need is outside the range of the bushes 

[Deacon 1357]

6 minutes ago, Innersphere said:

Thanks Lucas, appreciate the offer, but I have the front camber bolts already and am leaning strongly towards the LCA instead of bushes for the back, mostly because the correction I need is outside the range of the bushes 

The bushes would allow you to even the camber up - you would decrease the high side and increase the low side - you don't want 0 camber at the rear. Between -1.5 and -2 degrees is a good setting.

[Church 209]

For reference,

Stock OEM Factory alignment
        SERVICE DATA (2013 FR-S)_SPECIFICATIONS_ ALIGNMENT _ HANDLING DIAGNOSIS.pdf
Front:  Camber: 0 +/- 45' (0 +/- 0.75°) (Right/Left Difference: 0°45' (0.75°) or less)
        Caster (Reference): 5°54' (5.90°)
        Steering Axis Inclination (Reference): 15°31' (15.52°)
        Toe (Each Wheel): 0°00' +/- 0°11' (0.00° +/- 0.19°)
        Toe (Total): 0 +/- 3.0 mm (0 +/- 0.1181 in.)
Rear:   Camber: -1°12' +/- 45' (-1.20° +/- 0.75°) (Right/Left Difference: 45' (0.75°) or less)
        Toe (Each Wheel): C + D: 0°10' +/- 0°15' (0.16° +/- 0.24°)
        Toe (Total): 2.0 +/- 3.0 mm(0.0787 +/- 0.1181 in.)

But:

- it's ranges are too wide (for example handling noticeably differs with toe-in or toe-out by 0.2dg, and both extremes - "pass")

- it's understeer biased (which many don't like, at least on track), so worth upping front camber to be more then rear vs opposite bias of stock.

- it's within mentioned toe passing range, but worth on RWD car explicitly set slight toe-in for stability sake.

- if track use, even occasional is considered, extra static camber advised. MOSTLY for front, with "stock" 0dg camber. "Free grip" even on very same tires. On stock zero camber worth to have go mostly for first time, just "to have a taste", to feel oneself what (probably) needs to be improved.

[GraemeI 41]

That's a lot of numbers @Church !

I am more confused than I was before (easily done tbh!).

 

I am not a fan of understeer bias on track, but it's slightly better on road, but prefer neutral if possible, so with that in mind, what is a good starting point for the figures?

 

From what I can work out, were talking about camber as per grip preference Front to rear

• Camber Front - being somewhere between -1 and -2dg (currently -1.34 ave)
• Camber Rear - between -1.12 and -2dg
• Toe in Front - ??
• Toe in Rear - ??

 

Any  clues welcomed 

 

Thanks,

Graeme

[GraemeI 41]

6 hours ago, KevinA said:

Try and drive a car with all the mods on, you are not far from me and I have lots of kit fitted to the car. Might be an option for you also to look at the bits on a car in detail.

Thanks @KevinA - it's going to be a challenge to find the right mix of parts . Need to get settled with the car first I think...

[Deacon 1357]

29 minutes ago, Innersphere said:

That's a lot of numbers @Church !

I am more confused than I was before (easily done tbh!).

 

I am not a fan of understeer bias on track, but it's slightly better on road, but prefer neutral if possible, so with that in mind, what is a good starting point for the figures?

 

From what I can work out, were talking about camber as per grip preference Front to rear

• Camber Front - being somewhere between -1 and -2dg (currently -1.34 ave)
• Camber Rear - between -1.12 and -2dg
• Toe in Front - ??
• Toe in Rear - ??

 

Any  clues welcomed 

 

Thanks,

Graeme

0 toe at the front and a little toe at the rear with around -2/2.5° camber front and -1.5/2° camber rear works well

[GraemeI 41]

1 minute ago, Deacon said:

0 toe at the front and a little toe at the rear with around -2/2.5° camber front and -1.5/2° camber rear works well

This for general road use rather than track biased?  That is waaaay over stock recommendations !

 

Seems my current LR camber is close then - pity about everything else - lol!

 

Dont think camber bolts in front give that much adjustment which creates a new challenge of course! 

[Deacon 1357]

2 minutes ago, Innersphere said:

This for general road use rather than track biased?  That is waaaay over stock recommendations !

 

Seems my current LR camber is close then - pity about everything else - lol!

 

Dont think camber bolts in front give that much adjustment which creates a new challenge of course! 

Yes for road but if it's road only I'd probably go to more the -1.5° rear and -2 front (or as close as you can get with camber bolts anyway)

[GraemeI 41]

Just now, Deacon said:

Yes for road but if it's road only I'd probably go to more the -1.5° rear and -2 front (or as close as you can get with camber bolts anyway)

Wow, I am amazed, but am trusting your experience :-). I will go as far as I can on fronts and then do 75% of that on rear as that seems to be the common ratio :-)

[Church 209]

Innersphere: my choice would be - still dial out that excessive stock alignment understeer for front to not push out even if no track use considered, but on public roads to drive with at least VSC sport as minimum, for some safeguard to protect against spinouts. Reducing that understeer will not suddenly make your car overly oversteer happy, it's not that you reduce rear grip, it's that you add more extra grip front (for actually imho closer to neutral overall balance), to when you steer for car to actually turn, not push front out of curve. What you do later on curve even with that more camber in front still depends more on your driving inputs .. you still can make it understeer or oversteer mid turn with brake/accel/steering usage  .. just that bias imho now is nicer.

Most popular "custom" alignment numbers i've seen in forums:

for street, front camber -1.5 to --2, rear camber by 0.5 less than that

for mostly DD, occasional track visits -2.5 front (0.5 less @rear)

for large enough track share for most tire wear/use to happen there front camber in range of -3 to -3.5 degrees. It may also be used tire model/custom suspension/aero dependent (and again in same fashion 0.5 to 1 degree less camber at rear). And if one takes track racing serious enough one may have also more custom parts installed affecting optimum settings, and one also may use things like pyrometer to fine-dial ideal camber settings according to actually measured after track runs tire temps on inside/center/outside of tires. And even custom dial different camber right to left depending if it's clockwise or counterclockwise track layout

and for dedicated drift cars i've seen insane camber numbers mentioned, like -5 and such. Don't remember rear camber numbers though. Drift cars also may have non standart toe settings (eg. if car is still NA and is tuned for drifting, then one may counter lack of power with toe-out front for easier initiate of drift/sharper initial turn in (but less stable/less control) and toe out rear with tendency to go sideways. On powerful cars (eg. if adding forced induction) extra stability/control still won't hurt, so that hack of toe-out not needed)

toe in most cases works for street/mix/track 0 front, and slight toe-in rear ( 0.1-0.2 total toe).

[GraemeI 41]

I am a slow learner, but it's finally come back to me why I stopped modifying cars 

Once you put a foot on the slippery slope, you have had it in more ways than one!  

Went to get some LCA's today from Amber (they had in stock and are close to me, and I needed them today!) and the first challenge was the kit was short one camber bolt and washer, so now it's back and forth and I have tyres due tomorrow at 1500 with alignment at 1600 with no fixed LCA ....... a little close, I know .

Whilst under the car we notice the weld on the pipe going into the back box on the Milltek is a little iffy, but of course Milltek don't warranty second owners, so that's a new challenge.

On a plus point, I at least found out how the camber got so screwy - someone put in camber adjustment Powersports bushings, but not the correct splined bolts, so there was nothing to stop it moving around over time, so at least that's a better explanation than the alternative of accidental contact!

Another new thing I learnt was - the Summit LCA, as nice as it is, weighs 2.8kg per side vs the 1.5kg of stock and the Whiteline LCA.  That made the 1kg saved on the wheels seem pointless for unsprung weight loss, as they add 1.3 kg, so they stayed looking pretty in their box 

After my drive to Blyton next week, I am sure the discoveries will continue!  UEL and suspension next.... took a good look at the Flex A's with the EDFC Active Pro.  Bit expensive, but most likely to fit the bill without going mental on Ohlins or similar.  The Showa stuff looks good for non-adjustable, but difficult to get here, so it's not high on the list at the moment.  

Head unit is on the list too - the interface is driving me insane.... not to mention the sound quality....

And back to the beginning - this is exactly why I stopped doing this stuff - lol 

 

[GraemeI 41]

One more update, suggesting I was wrong all along!

Amber got the camber bolt and washer from Whiteline in Scotland and put into the LCA so I could get alignment done.  After driving out, the car felt very loose and I felt a vibration from the front of the car which felt like ABS but I wasn't touching the brakes!  I was travelling under 20mph too!   Very very weird symptoms, so back again, car on the ramp checking everything.  

Could not see any faults, but some Google work by James found that the VSC triggers when the car feels unstable.  Fix is to turn of Traction control and drive carefully....  I tested the theory and hey bingo!  Drove back to Toyota rather slowly as the car was swaying all over the place at anything over 40mph.  New tyres fitted, driven very slowly home to be parked until the alignment visit on Monday morning!

So, what was the moral of the story? 

In short, it's very possible for the smallest alignment issues to cause the car to become so unstable that it triggers all the ESC and traction and ABS systems!  This makes me think the previous alignment could have made the car as slippy as it was.  I have never experienced anything anywhere near this dramatic before, so it was a good lesson learned!

Anyway, have new PS4's now, so should be good for grip for the foreseeable future, and got a great price match from Toyota, so happy all round!

Thanks again to everyone for their input and education! Much appreciated!

Now to try get the aligment people to ignore all the factory settings and make it all red on the charts instead.  That should be fun!!!

Have a great weekend everyone!