FI Recomendations

[alucardo 55]

Just wondered if I could have peoples opinion.

I am currently looking into FI.. The car is my daily and I do 4-8 trackdays a year so it will need to standup to that kind of punishment. My track sessions are usually 15-25 mins before I return to the pit.

I have mainly looked at TD turbo kit which is nicely priced but has not real track data as of yet but temp's all look decent especially if combined with an oil cooler kit and radiator.

I have been looking at supercharging but must admit I have gotten a little lost. Just wondered what other people are running and how well they have been running on track session length etc.

[S18 RSG 429]

Both @DanJ and @Ade run superchargers on track, so have collected a fair amount of data. They're running the Harrop and Cosworth respectively. 

Any setup will almost require an oil cooler for extended track use, but that's true of the standard car as much as it is with an FI application.

I've not done any track time since December when I had my TD turbo fitted, mostly cause it's winter, but I've been able to run the car very hard on some Welsh B roads, and after an hour or so of passionate driving, my IAT's were only around 5 above ambient. The large FMIC on the TD setup should, in theory, aid with track abuse fairly well. One of my main areas to focus on when I get on the track is the intake pipe being so close to the hot downpipe. I'm tempted to wrap the intake pipe in some gold foil or similar to reflect the heat away from the intake air if it looks to be a problem come the warmer months.

On the flip side of all that, I also daily my TD turbo car. I average 35mpg, and can easily see mid 40's on a run. What I miss out on compared to the supercharged applications is the immediate throttle response and low down torque, but comparing to a typical NA>Turbo conversion, this package is a lot closer to an OEM turbo than anything I've tried before. Almost no lag, boost builds from around 2500rpm with max boost coming in around 3k. That means the car drives quite similarly to stock, where you have to rev it to get the best out of it, you just don't have to rev it so high.

My only good experience with supercharging was with the Harrop setup @DanJ has (although I've never tried a Cosworth, but they are very similar I understand). It was very impressive. Whereas the turbo application feels like an FI car, the Harrop felt like you dropped a 350Z engine in a GT86. Bags of low down torque in any gear, but very little drama. Only way you could really tell you were going faster was by watching the speedo.

Really all depends on what you want specifically, as although the end results are similar, the delivery and drivability have some differences.

[alucardo 55]

I did have a ride in the TD car and was really impressed how linear it was. Those temperatures do seem pretty good. The install cost of TD's seem very reasonable, need to check on the cost of Harrop and Cosworth as from what reading ive done its 1-2k more.

[Paul 442]

The TD kit is ridiculously cheap for the whole package + install. The Cosworth is over a grand more without the install, and the Harrop is up in that ballpark now.

[Ade 517]

@alucardo you are doing the right thing to choose a kit with test data. There are many kits that cannot stand up to repeated lapping of a circuit.

 

I've done a few trackdays with @DanJ and can happily say both Harrop and Cosworth kits running stock boost are more than capable of running continuously are the track in high ambient temperatures and keeping intake temperatures down. 

I would recommend an oil cooler, though Dan (and others) just back off when they hit 130C after 10 minutes or so. This is not a bad idea as oil coolers are another failure point in the system and loss of oil pressure can be catastrophic, but if like me you are keen to be able to stay out 20mins+ and oil cooler is not a bad idea, but choose wisely and again look for test data.

Here's a couple of sessions from different track days i've done in my Cosworth SC' car. 

and road driving

 

 

[S18 RSG 429]

27 minutes ago, alucardo said:

I did have a ride in the TD car and was really impressed how linear it was. Those temperatures do seem pretty good. The install cost of TD's seem very reasonable, need to check on the cost of Harrop and Cosworth as from what reading ive done its 1-2k more.

I paid £4.3k for the install, as I had the license for the Ecutek. I was quoted around £1,200 more for the Harrop kit, but that price was mostly due to the increase in import charges following Brexit, and the decline of the Pound, not Abbey's fault at all.

The Cosworth kit is UK based, so no worries about import costs or similar, but the price is still around £5.5k for install due to the amount of R&D they put into their kit.

I told @Mike@TD.co.uk that he's priced himself into business, so I hope he's ready, cause his kit is easily one of the best kits out there, yet is still one of the cheapest. For a turbo application, it's a no brainer.

[alucardo 55]

Thanks for the info so far.

Cosworth and TD appear to be top of my list then which is kinda of where I was but got lost down a rabbit hole. I have not seen any track data for the TD kit yet but my everything I have read it seems to be ok but at the moment Im edging towards the Cosworth just based on their testing methods.

[Paul 442]

6 minutes ago, Ade said:

I would recommend an oil cooler, though Dan (and others) just back off when they hit 130C after 10 minutes or so. This is not a bad idea as oil coolers are another failure point in the system and loss of oil pressure can be catastrophic, but if like me you are keen to be able to stay out 20mins+ and oil cooler is not a bad idea, but choose wisely and again look for test data.

@AdeYeah you couldn't get enough of the sight of my taillights round Snetterton.... 

[Ade 517]

1 minute ago, Paul said:

@AdeYeah you couldn't get enough of the sight of my taillights round Snetterton.... 

Yawn.

@alucardo 

Cosworth kit is basically stage 1 + 2 now and its £4950+Vat now.

For that you get the SC kit, thermostat, air filter and tune... oh and a shiny badge made by a local badge maker in Northampton 

It is expensive, but you get what you pay for. If you havent seen the cosworth owners thread on the other side, its worth a read as the guys at Cosworth share some details of the engine development and testing they did. Most notably the evaluation and testing of the stock rods and setting the cylinder pressure to a max safe limit. 

[TTR 509]

5 minutes ago, Paul said:

@AdeYeah you couldn't get enough of the sight of my taillights round Snetterton.... 

Here we go 

[S18 RSG 429]

8 minutes ago, alucardo said:

Thanks for the info so far.

Cosworth and TD appear to be top of my list then which is kinda of where I was but got lost down a rabbit hole. I have not seen any track data for the TD kit yet but my everything I have read it seems to be ok but at the moment Im edging towards the Cosworth just based on their testing methods.

You're probably looking at the best supercharger vs the best turbo, so you're on the right path.

One question is, when are you planning on having the work done? Both myself and Mike will likely have some test data on the TD turbo later in the year as we start tracking our cars, so if you're not in a rush, you might benefit from patience.

If you can't wait, you should consider whether the difference in price is worth it for some test data. If yes, then Cosworth is the way to go. If not, and you're willing to rely on what information is out there currently, then take a gamble with the TD kit. Either way, you won't be disappointed, but that's a decision for you alone to make.

[Paul 442]

1 minute ago, S18 RSG said:

You're probably looking at the best supercharger vs the best turbo, so you're on the right path.

One question is, when are you planning on having the work done? Both myself and Mike will likely have some test data on the TD turbo later in the year as we start tracking our cars, so if you're not in a rush, you might benefit from patience.

If you can't wait, you should consider whether £1,000 is a price worth paying for some test data. If yes, then Cosworth is the way to go. If not, and you're willing to rely on what information is out there currently, then take a gamble with the TD kit. Either way, you won't be disappointed, but that's a decision for you alone to make.

But it's £4.5k for the TD kit + install vs. £4950+VAT for just the Cossie kit itself. So you're talking about (conservatively) £750 for fitting of the Cossie, meaning the difference is 2.2k, at that point you'd have to REALLY want the Cossie IMHO.

[S18 RSG 429]

1 minute ago, Paul said:

But it's £4.5k for the TD kit + install vs. £4950+VAT for just the Cossie kit itself. So you're talking about (conservatively) £750 for fitting of the Cossie, meaning the difference is 2.2k, at that point you'd have to REALLY want the Cossie IMHO.

Yeah, that's kinda my point, that's why I changed the last sentence to "price difference", as I wasn't sure it was actually £1,000.

If you're correct in your maths, then yes, £2,200 is a lot of money to pay for some piece of mind, especially when there's no guarantee that EVERY kit will perform the same as Ade's or Cosworth's test car.

That £2,200 could go towards fixing almost any problem found on the TD kit, and probably still have money to spare for tyres for the next track day

[alucardo 55]

At the moment the Cosworth edges it but my install would likely be July as im doing a Eurotrip in the GT in June and would not really modify it then go just encase of issues. So I can wait till July. TD is however very close based on a ride in one and price and great reviews so far. However for my use, abit of peace of mind would be a cherry and a already delicious looking cake.

[alucardo 55]

I also have the TD exhaust so I have met Mike and hes a good chap so would trust them to do work on the car so essentially I am sold on TD but just gathering more data at the mo. So as it stands for Cosworth more expensive but everything I have read has them as the flag bearer for FI at the mo.

[TTR 509]

Also, if this is a consideration for you...Which it may not be. The Cosworth kit looks very OEM under the hood, whilst the same cannot be said for the TD Kit in my opinion.

[Ade 517]

The Cosworth does include a thermostat, filter AND badge. That's £100 worth of stuff 

Fensport charge £650+vat to install the new cossy kit so you are talking £6700 drive in dive out which is a lot of money, but in perspective its a £25k car and if you want the most tested and most likely to be reliable its definitely worth a thought. 

What Turbo does the TD kit use? is it a well known OEM manufacturer like BorgWarner ect?

The TVS unit used in the cossy and harrop kit is used on Jaguars, Astons, Mercs ect... I reckon the new Yaris GRMN will have an Eaton charger too. 

[TTR 509]

1 minute ago, Ade said:

The Cosworth does include a thermostat, filter AND badge. That's £100 worth of stuff 

Fensport charge £650+vat to install the new cossy kit so you are talking £6700 drive in dive out which is a lot of money, but in perspective its a £25k car and if you want the most tested and most likely to be reliable its definitely worth a thought. 

What Turbo does the TD kit use? is it a well known OEM manufacturer like BorgWarner ect?

The TVS unit used in the cossy and harrop kit is used on Jaguars, Astons ect...

TD use a Precision Turbo 5558 Unit. 

[Bfranklyn86 52]

My 2p:

If you really want to be selective then need to be thinking about how you want the power delivered too and a load of other things

if you enjoy tracking and and like to get most of your boost at the top end then you should be considering the HKS centrifugal supercharger.

Also, would you consider bulking the engine in future and aiming for 500bhp? Then go for turbo. Better fuel economy from the turbo too.

Cosworth vs harrop: the cosworth has better cooling capacity, the name and UK built, but the harrop is a slightly larger charger which is also front drive front entry I.e. The most instantaneous boost.

Disclaimer: I have a harrop. I have never driven any other FI 86.

[Rich 378]

The boost lag difference between Harrop and Cosworth is effectively zero. Where the air enters doesn't matter to boost response - all that matters is the throttle body to intake valve distance, which should be about the same from what I can see. @Ade will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Cosworth relocates the throttle body to the rear of the supercharger so it's directly attached to the charger intake.

[Ade 517]

 

The boost lag difference between Harrop and Cosworth is effectively zero. Where the air enters doesn't matter to boost response - all that matters is the throttle body to intake valve distance, which should be about the same from what I can see. @Ade will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Cosworth relocates the throttle body to the rear of the supercharger so it's directly attached to the charger intake.

 

 

 

Yep it relocates it right to the back you are correct. The main thing that affects throttle response on the tvs kits is the how quickly the bypass can close when you come on throttle.

 

 

 

 

[alucardo 55]

Not looking to break 280bhp. Just looking for some nice additional power.

Some really useful information keep it coming... Things are becoming alot clearer.

Under the hood aesthetics do not bother me in all honesty. Just avoiding heat soak and Im happy.

[S18 RSG 429]

How about the childish things, like noise?

The TVS chargers give off a feint whine, but nothing like as loud as the Sprintex. The TD kit on the other hand is classic Supra/Skyline soundtrack. Open wastegate, flutter when lifting off etc. It's by no means subtle. I can't imagine it would be a deciding factor, but certainly something to consider I would think. 

[alucardo 55]

Good tip. I ran a gtr33 for a while and enjoyed some of the sounds not all. I thought the TD demo car sounded decent. However I do like a supercharger whine.

[Subota Boy 402]

Peace of mind was my reason for going Cosworth.  Had it almost a year now (stage 1 and 2) and it all feels very OEM, giving no strain on the standard components, which cope very well with the additional power delivery.  Finding the Primacys a bit of a handful in the wet under a generous power application, so they will be binned shortly.  They work okay in the dry though.