Time to remap?

[S18 RSG 429]

Hey everyone.

 

I've been trying to come up with a plan for what order to go with in terms of mods for the 86.

 

I've already done a few of the cheaper things that everyone seems to do (air filter, decat, gear knob), but now the next stage is more difficult to decide.

 

Over the next 3 months, I want to get the remap done, complete the rest of the exhaust (over pipe and cat back) and do a few other smaller things (arm rest, springs, bushes, ARB's etc.) but I'm not sure what order to do these in, and wanted some opinions based on what you guys found to be the most impactful changes.

 

I'm sure the remap would probably be the biggest change, but would it be more useful for me to wait until the exhaust is finished. On my previous cars, I've always done exhaust first, as on turbo cars I know that tuning is effected quite heavily by exhaust (boost is lowered if you have a decat, for example) but I didn't know if it was as important on an NA car.

 

Each stage is looking to be around the £500 mark, and while I would love to do it all at once, I don't think throwing £1,500 at the car in one go is necessarily the best idea, so what would you guys suggest?

 

LIttle things first, exhaust, then remap? Or go straight for the remap and worry about everything else later?

 

Cheers all.

[Tareim 343]

definitely would advise holding out until the exhaust is done till you get a remap, also I would suggest looking at a better manifold rather than just overpipe/front pipe

[JamesP1991 222]

Intake, exhaust, manifold and then remap will yield the best gains and have everything optimised. If you start adding exhaust components after a remap you will then need to map the car again to gain the full benefit of them  

[Kodename47 446]

Or get an ECUtek license and do the 1st maps yourself, with the help of the OFT crowd in the US using the off the shelf maps, then just pay for a custom map when it's all done.

[S18 RSG 429]

Intake, exhaust, manifold and then remap will yield the best gains and have everything optimised. If you start adding exhaust components after a remap you will then need to map the car again to gain the full benefit of them

 

The latter part of your reply was my suspicion. I know that was always the case with boosted cars, just wasn't 100% on NA.

 

The only thing I'm a little dubious about as of right now is the manifold.

 

I know they are sworn by for the gains they yield, and the sound they produce, but so far as I can see, there isn't anything reasonably priced on the market that fits my needs.

 

I wanted an UEL system, with a cat fitted, as I'm not a big fan of switching out cat/decat pipes come MOT time.

 

I wanna say I've seen something on the market to this description, but at somewhere towards the £800-1000 mark, and for that price, I can't imagine the gains would be worth the cost. I would rather spend that money on wheels and tyres and make a big difference to looks and handling.

[Tareim 343]

The latter part of your reply was my suspicion. I know that was always the case with boosted cars, just wasn't 100% on NA.

 

The only thing I'm a little dubious about as of right now is the manifold.

 

I know they are sworn by for the gains they yield, and the sound they produce, but so far as I can see, there isn't anything reasonably priced on the market that fits my needs.

 

I wanted an UEL system, with a cat fitted, as I'm not a big fan of switching out cat/decat pipes come MOT time.

 

I wanna say I've seen something on the market to this description, but at somewhere towards the £800-1000 mark, and for that price, I can't imagine the gains would be worth the cost. I would rather spend that money on wheels and tyres and make a big difference to looks and handling.

 

I've just got a JDL UEL catted manifold from the states, even without a tune it is 100% worth it already

[Kodename47 446]

One of the better catted UEL manifolds: http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/ft86-catted-uel-header-1397.html

I can't really think of any other UELs that have a cat from a budget brand, unless of course you go for the eBay ones.

TBH the exhaust system doesn't make a huge difference, the manifold is by far the best for gains as well as a remap. The guys in the states claim that a manifold & tune on the rest of the stock system will net you 90-95% of the gains that you could get with a full system. If budget is a concern and performance is you main priority then do that. Don't forget that you have the option to ditch the cat in the manifold and keep the onein the front pipe.

Also, the biggest changes in a remap is the cam changes for an exhaust manifold. To add the rest of an exhaust system at a later date will require no real changes.

[Tareim 343]

@knightryder I considered the ft86speed factory one before my purchase however for a little bit more money you can go for a well respected name over in the states that is JDL, also the JDL is slightly more UEL than the ft86sf

[Lauren 2259]

I still haven't done a remap yet. But I would say that sorting the suspension is more worthwhile having driven remapped cars. Yes they are a bit quicker, but it's not mega. The biggest gain that I didn't notice was deleting the 2nd cat. 

 

But, lowering springs won't cut it, do it properly with coilovers. The Tein Flex Z is an absolute bargain and with a decent geo setup will make a massive difference. 

 

The other thing you may want to consider, seeing as you have an auto is to consider changing the final drive so you have comparable acceleration to a manual. 

 

As other's have said, no point really doing a remap until you've done the exhaust/induction stuff. 

[Church 209]

If UEL is not requirement, imho worth taking look is Aceheader's 4-2-1. Pros: supposedly currently best, cons: one if not most expensive. Though of course if one detracts cost of it's integrated overpipe, or that this manifold alone provides most performance gains nearing FA20 NA limits, then it's price is rather competitive if one leaves rest of exhaust & intake stock (as almost not adding any gains above it's due gains bad stacking/diminishing returns). Needs accompanying ecu tune of course, to fully use it's capabilities.

Indeed, suggested Tein Z look of very promising price/performancy wise, if one looks at MSRP like that of many much worse very budget-ish coilovers and reads prising reviews. In addition to different ratio final drive imho one can also look for lighter wheels. Though slightly, but they also can enhance acceleration/suspension work.

Of course, if tuning would have been free and would take no time, best but improbable choice would be to tune after each component install. But as this is real world, i'd do just one dyno run with everything stock, and one dyno custom tune with all the aftermarket parts installed. Saved money can be dedicated to other things/upgrades .. or even on track days & HPDE instructor training to upgrade main component, between wheel and seat

I'm not too sure why so many are aiming for lowering at all. To me it doesn't enhance looks that much, but will rob a lot from it's daily driveability on often far from perfect condition roads/obstacles/curbs/roadholes/speedbumps/steep driveways to clear. Better suspension - yes, lowering - no.

Even if one doesn't do any suspension upgrades, imho it's worth do alignment, even on stock, as it has chance of being out of whack even on stock car as shipped. Gains are slight (imho chance of it alignment being completely off & noticeably affecting handling on stock is very small), but so is price.

[S18 RSG 429]

I still haven't done a remap yet. But I would say that sorting the suspension is more worthwhile having driven remapped cars. Yes they are a bit quicker, but it's not mega. The biggest gain that I didn't notice was deleting the 2nd cat. 

 

But, lowering springs won't cut it, do it properly with coilovers. The Tein Flex Z is an absolute bargain and with a decent geo setup will make a massive difference. 

 

The other thing you may want to consider, seeing as you have an auto is to consider changing the final drive so you have comparable acceleration to a manual. 

 

As other's have said, no point really doing a remap until you've done the exhaust/induction stuff. 

 

When did I say I have an auto? Haha. I have a manual

 

To answer you and Chruch, I swayed more towards springs than coilovers for a few reasons. Firstly, I had coilovers on a previous car. Spent around £800 on them, had them tuned in properly with full geometry setup, the whole works, and then I never took them on track (I did a few track days, just never in that car). I basically spent what was well over £1,000 all things considered, on suspension parts, just for a more uncomfortable ride and slightly better handling around roundabouts. 

 

On my previous car, I went with an ARB, bushes and springs, and for basically £300 had the same downsides as the coilovers, with very comparable upgrade in handling. 

 

I really don't buy in to this opinion of needing to spend so much money on suspension, especially in cars like these, which have been engineered for a purpose (and done extremely well at that). At the end of the day, the car will be driven on the road for 99% of it's total mileage. With springs, bushes and roll bars I have 80% of the performance (for my driving anyway), for less than half the price. I still get the better looks with the lowering aspect, and the ride comfort comes down to the quality of the springs, so honestly, unless I plan on doing track days all year (which I don't), I struggle to see the advantage in spending an extra £5-600 on coilovers, over springs.

 

Maybe someone can try to convince me otherwise, but please try to avoid the typical forum opinions of "springs are pointless, coilovers or nothing", which I've already covered.

[Church 209]

Actually springs and good shocks (for example many prize RCE yellows + koni shocks) can be as good or better choice then many cheap budget low quality coilovers (which in turn sometimes are even worse then stock ones). Just that tein flex Z seem to also be exception among budget coilovers, price/quality wise. Yes, by taking rebuildability out, but it's by far not price level of some ohlins RT/KW V3/JRZ/RCE Tarmac */Billsteins.

As for - 'ride became firmer/harsher, lost daily driving comfort' - i've seen several times stated view of competent in suspension people, that much stiffer spring rates do not automatically mean loss of driving comfort, if they are accompanied by better quality dampeners matching well those higher spring rates. As example - even with something as stiff as 11K/12K spring rates of Tein SRC. But those are very same people that said that budget coilovers are no good, and usually prefer something from budget of £1500-7000 for coilovers alone . I can easily imagine that something of £500-£1000 can result in better handling in turns only at price of DD comfort loss.

As for 'need' .. yes, i second that even on completely stock suspension, toyobaru twins are surprisingly good, compared to other cars i've driven. Not that it cannot be improved upon, but nevertheless. And even for lap times and going faster in general, best improvement will be "upgrading driver" by more tracktime/experience, HPDE lessons and alike instead of putting that money to car upgrades. Be it performance, be it suspension upgrades. Without driver skills one will not be able to use all extra power, and same about improved suspension. Better driver on stock car in most cases will get better results then newbie on tuned or more expensive/higher end one.

[Lauren 2259]

Sorry confusing you with Tareim, he has an auto. 

 

I've been in cars on lowered springs and it seemed to me that they did not match well with the damping. I think for a resonable price and by choosing a sensible spring rate with coilovers (this may be a lower spring rate than what they initially may come with), you can improve the ride and sharpen the handling. 

 

I drive on the road nearly all the time too. But, I like my car to handle as well it can do and having compared my car with various stock cars I've driven extensively, it makes the stock car feel vague. 

 

It's your money of course, but if you're a driver then you'll appreciate the difference. I'm currently in the Italian Alps, having driven the Austrian passes yesterday and have the Dolomites to do today. I apprecaite that my car handles far better than a stock car in situations like these. So it all depends upon how much you care about it. For me 80% as good as my car handling wise is nowhere near enough. For others it may be less important. 

[Church 209]

Lauren: roads driven daily may differ a lot. One thing are fun inducing twisties in alps .. another countries with most roads in awful state, many potholes and so on (for example - most post Soviet Union ones). Aaand there can also be sometimes non ignorable opinion of significant other, that can whine about ride being unacceptably harsh that makes her drop hers spine in pants . And she might have different views on how justifiable extra spendings on car in family budget are. Men have to find right compromise between all those underwater cliffs , if car is only one.

[S18 RSG 429]

Sorry confusing you with Tareim, he has an auto. 

 

I've been in cars on lowered springs and it seemed to me that they did not match well with the damping. I think for a resonable price and by choosing a sensible spring rate with coilovers (this may be a lower spring rate than what they initially may come with), you can improve the ride and sharpen the handling. 

 

I drive on the road nearly all the time too. But, I like my car to handle as well it can do and having compared my car with various stock cars I've driven extensively, it makes the stock car feel vague. 

 

It's your money of course, but if you're a driver then you'll appreciate the difference. I'm currently in the Italian Alps, having driven the Austrian passes yesterday and have the Dolomites to do today. I apprecaite that my car handles far better than a stock car in situations like these. So it all depends upon how much you care about it. For me 80% as good as my car handling wise is nowhere near enough. For others it may be less important. 

 

All good points, but again, I have no argument against the fact that coilovers are better than springs. Not even a contest.

 

My main point was, and still is, that for every day driving, the extra £5-600 spent on coilovers over springs, doesn't make such a significant difference to justify the price. Springs lower the car and make it roll less through corners, and for most cornering during everyday driving, those two factors alone are enough to show an improvement. In those moments where you get chance to corner hard, or you're driving a particularly encouraging road, coilovers will certainly show their class, but even in that case, I would make an argument that you could spend that £5-600 on a good set of tyres, bushes and roll bars to go with your springs and probably have a more well rounded package than just buying coilovers by themselves.

 

As we all know, the biggest bottleneck in the original car, in terms of the step up from fun, slidey handling, to good, balanced grippy handling, are the tyres. The stock suspension is (for my money) better than what most stock cars get, and can easily handle the power from the factory, and more. Just a simple stiffen and drop seems like it would do the trick when coupled with upgrades in other areas.

 

Again, open to opinions on this, as this is clearly just my opinion.

[Deacon 1357]

I've had springs and 3 sets of coilovers on mine and would agree with most of what you say, however, the Tein Flex A's do have one considerable advantage over everything else I've tried and that's the improvement in ride quality even over a stock car. That's with my car now dropped about 50mm all round so I would expect an even better ride with less drop. For me what would make them worth the about £900.

[S18 RSG 429]

I've had springs and 3 sets of coilovers on mine and would agree with most of what you say, however, the Tein Flex A's do have one considerable advantage over everything else I've tried and that's the improvement in ride quality even over a stock car. That's with my car now dropped about 50mm all round so I would expect an even better ride with less drop. For me what would make them worth the about £900.

 

Honestly, given how much they're praised, I would go against all my opinions and buy them if they were £6-700.

 

It's paying £900, then having to get them fitted (I could do it myself, but I'd like to get it done properly and set up etc.), so all in, I'm probably looking at something like £1,100 or more.

 

Springs are under £200, cost £100 to get fitted and £50 for geometry. That's more like it.

[Church 209]

But if you add to price of springs price of shocks?

And i wouldn't ever claim that ANY coilover is better then springs .. heard of suspension made worse by installing cheap budget coilovers, with mismatched dampening rates, with 'customisation' hardly working (and often at unconsistent rates). Hence imho best bet - stay stock, go springs + better shocks or third step (skipping cheapest ones) for coilovers from £1500 and up, with exception of maybe these Teins.

[S18 RSG 429]

But if you add to price of springs price of shocks?

And i wouldn't ever claim that ANY coilover is better then springs .. heard of suspension made worse by installing cheap budget coilovers, with mismatched dampening rates, with 'customisation' hardly working (and often at unconsistent rates). Hence imho best bet - stay stock, go springs + better shocks or third step (skipping cheapest ones) for coilovers from £1500 and up, with exception of maybe these Teins.

 

Yeah, I agree, not EVERY coilover is good. 

 

I came from the VAG scene where guys would spend £200 on coilovers just for the drop. It made their cars almost undriveable, but they didn't care.

 

Your springs and shocks option is probably what I'll end up doing. Tein springs are £150, and give a 25mm drop, which is perfectly fine for me, then coupled with ~£500 on shocks at a later date. I don't need the adjustability of coilovers, so that sounds like a perfect compromise.

[JamesP1991 222]

I currently have 25mm Tein springs in mine with the geo all done and can confirm the car does feel tighter and more responsive on the road with less body roll when pushing on. Ride comfort is only slightly worse on the worst bumps. For £150 from Fensport it was a no brainer for me. 

 

I am planning on putting Koni shocks inside them towards the end of the year and finish it off with some improved bushes, now the car is turbocharged and running a bucket load more power.

 

Like you I couldn't justify or afford £1000 just on suspension at the time, and wanted to do it in stages instead. The springs are a short term solution which have improved the car, which I will now finish off now I can afford it with shocks and bushes later on this year

[S18 RSG 429]

Couldn't agree more James, you just summed up my attitude entirely.

 

For me, it's not necessarily not having the money to do it, but rather being unwilling to spend so much. I would rather use that money elsewhere and gradually increase each aspect of the car, rather than spend so much improving suspension, so that other aspects of the car (tyres, brakes, power etc.) start to feel like they're underwhelming in comparison.

[bassett 48]

Interesting thread and no doubt once mine arrives I'm looking for the same fast road car that can still be driven everyday. As for components like headers etc buy the brands everyone rates so that if you come to sell or upgrade you'll get nearer what you paid for them and then it's cost you only time or labour and there is no downside of your decision.

[Kodename47 446]

I am planning on putting Koni shocks inside them towards the end of the year and finish it off with some improved bushes, now the car is turbocharged and running a bucket load more power.

Careful of that.... the Konis have had their issues and I would be wary of just bushing for the sake of. You can over-bush a car that it quickly becomes un-compliant on the road. I haven't felt the need for it on my car running similar power. When my shocks die I will be looking at the Bilstein shock offerings or the uprated Sachs dampers that come on the MY15+.

Diff bushing might be or more worth to you, unless you feel an issue then why change? Mark @ Abbey has a good idea of what to change on a road car

[S18 RSG 429]

Careful of that.... the Konis have had their issues and I would be wary of just bushing for the sake of. You can over-bush a car that it quickly becomes un-compliant on the road. I haven't felt the need for it on my car running similar power. When my shocks die I will be looking at the Bilstein shock offerings or the uprated Sachs dampers that come on the MY15+.

Diff bushing might be or more worth to you, unless you feel an issue then why change? Mark @ Abbey has a good idea of what to change on a road car

 

Hopefully Mark sees this thread. I'd be interested to get a relatively unbiassed opinion on the matter.

[JamesP1991 222]

Careful of that.... the Konis have had their issues and I would be wary of just bushing for the sake of. You can over-bush a car that it quickly becomes un-compliant on the road. I haven't felt the need for it on my car running similar power. When my shocks die I will be looking at the Bilstein shock offerings or the uprated Sachs dampers that come on the MY15+.

Diff bushing might be or more worth to you, unless you feel an issue then why change? Mark @ Abbey has a good idea of what to change on a road car

 

I wanted Bilstein's over anything else, but due to the ease of Fensport selling Koni's and having Dave being able to fit them at the same time there (as I am quite close to them) I thought that would be the right way to go. The Bilstein's were hard to track down for me, or I could have just been looking in the wrong places.

 

What kind of issues did the Koni's have? 

 

Bushing hasn't been an issue for me so far, but I thought with the lowered springs and new shocks, it would be wise to change them at the same time. I would be intrigued to see what feedback Mark can give us on the matter though.