Any device to Monitor Knock?

[iddrew 86]

Admin, i don't know if this should be in Mechanical of Electrical section so feel free to move it.


So, my question is, since i'm now going forced induction, fuel in Malta is not so great, plus i want to take care of my engine, do you know of some kind of gauge of monitor or device etc etc that can monitor knock readings? Maybe also show highest knock reading? I'm really REALLY scared about knock and would like to keep a close eye on it.

Thanks

[Church 209]

You shouldn't be too scared. ECU monitors knocking accurances when learning fuel trims, and should change cam and ignition timings accordingly. Or in worst knocking cases, cuts a bit power. At worst case you just won't be able to run engine to full capabilities. I highly doubt you'll be able damage anything.

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

The stock knock control via the ECUTEK is very good.

 

Your tuner should be able to tune the car no problem.

 

 

Thanks

[cliddell 9]

Is the knock sensor reading available via OBD2?

[Kodename47 446]

Is the knock sensor reading available via OBD2?

ECUtek/OP2/OFT can. Not sure about the generic BT devices.

[iddrew 86]

Thanks for the info guys. Yeah i know that ecutek handle knock very well, but i wanted a device that can show me realtime knock so as soon as i notice that knock readings are repeatedly high i can stop pushing it. Also for example it will indicate if the octane in the fuel is finishing (since we have crap fuel here i'm forced to mix in octane booster every time!)

I could have sworn i came across a device once specifically for the GT86 in the US . Can't seem to find it though

For now i'm considering running the OpenFlash Tablet as that has a nice page that displays all important data.

 

Will keep you guys posted of any info i stumble upon

[Kodename47 446]

The Advance Multiplier (IAM) is a good indication if things are running well or lots of knock is detected. Alot of that will depend on the way it's mapped though.

Are you going to get it tuned on an OFT?

[iddrew 86]

Thanks for the reply knightryder,

I am getting it mapped remotely by Adrian@Fensport using the ecutek stuff. But i wanted some device that i can look at occasionally just to make sure knock is under control. 

I was considering running OFT just for the sake of having a small screen outputting valuable data. That's all. i won't dare touch any maps with it.

[Kodename47 446]

It's quite pricey for a display though. It's a shame that the CEL flash for knock hasn't been implemented in ECUtek. Just rely on the mapping that it'll be ok. A few datalogs should be adequate to know that the tune is safe.

[Special K 442]

Andrew, what is the octane rating for your local fuel?

 

Spec K

[iddrew 86]

Official Octane rating is 95RON (That's the maximum you can get). BUT due to the poor conditions of gas stations they vary a lot and can sometimes even go down to 85 (a friend of mine had taken several samples and tested)

That's why i'm worried and would like to monitor knock.

 

Andrew

[Varelco 211]

If you are genuinely that scared of knock problems then surely you should have the car mapped conservatively to counter this? What is you intention? To drive around continously watching a gauge/monitor frightened to use your car how you should do. You are not going enjoy the car this way.

[Tareim 343]

would a flex fuel kit be good for this scenario? I know they are normally for using E85 but if they can detect that different fuel could they also be used to monitor octane and then adjust a map accordingly?

[Kodename47 446]

would a flex fuel kit be good for this scenario? I know they are normally for using E85 but if they can detect that different fuel could they also be used to monitor octane and then adjust a map accordingly?

Flexfuel monitors ethanol content, I doubt there's something that can monitor octane. Certainly not that I know of. The best thing with ECUtek would be to have different octane maps,but knowing when to switch requires knowing what to look for.

[iddrew 86]

It would be awesome to have some device that in real-time can monitor octane levels, would prevent so much damage by incorporating it into the ECU's maps. however i'm not aware (doesn't mean it doesn't exist) that such a device exists.

 

Current flex fuel sensors just measure the Ethanol content (much easier to detect and calculate than a RON octane level) and output it.

[Kodename47 446]

It would be awesome to have some device that in real-time can monitor octane levels, would prevent so much damage by incorporating it into the ECU's maps.

Essentially the stock ECU does just this with the advance multiplier.

Simply put the ECU has 2 ignition timing tables, base and advance. The advance multiiplier is between 0 and 1 and does what it says. The total timing is: Base Timing + (Advance Timing x IAM) = Total ignition timing. Don't forget that the ECU is designed to detect the onset of knock and not just when knock occurs and retards timing. If it consistently has to retard timing then the IAM decreases meaning your run less timing overall from the advance table.

Realistically you could have two maps and setup that if the IAM really starts to drop then you switch to a lower octane map. The reason some of the guys in the USA were getting issues is that they were setting the advance table to 0 giving no adjustment, as some tuners believed that the IAM would fight their work and performance would drop. If you give it a large range operation then it can, in theory, adjust well for a large range in octane.

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

The stock calibration will also add fuel if the Advance Multiplier drops below a certain level. This can be adjusted.

Using the RaceRom feature you could shut the throttle if the AM drops below a certain value. This would instantly give you feedback that you are seeing something happening that is causing the AM to drop.

With a little lateral thinking the RaceRom with EcuTek can be used to make your engine as safe as possible.

[iddrew 86]

Thanks guys for the info, really detailed.

I didn't know racerom is so advanced!  It's now extra piece of mind when it comes to tuning. Thanks a lot guys

[Tim Radley 18]

Thanks guys for the info, really detailed.

I didn't know racerom is so advanced!  It's now extra piece of mind when it comes to tuning. Thanks a lot guys

Put a Motec ecu on it then you can log realtime knock

 

If the map is done correctly as stated above then it will pull the timing if it senses knock.  Where this goes wrong is when a tuner doesn't know how to set the knock control up properly.  So regardless of fuel quality or any other issue, knock is knock so if detected it should pull timing back and keep you safe.

[Mark@Abbey M/S 235]

Tim you can log knock with the EcuTek live just can't tune live.

[Tim Radley 18]

Tim you can log knock with the EcuTek live just can't tune live.

How many frequencies can it log and at what rate?  I've never used it so no idea and their website gives little to no information.  Also will it log each cylinder?

[GT86Jay 202]

It can log to 0.01 seconds. It can do per cylinder logging and per cylinder mapping. To the point we can map separate cylinders differently. 

 

The built in Knock Sensor is very intelligent and clever. 

 

At the moment I see no need to run a Motec, Ecutek covers everything we need even in Race situations and is far far cheaper. 

 

Out of interest why do you run a Motex M150? What does it give you that Ecutek doesn't? Does the M150 do Port and Direct Injection? 

[Tim Radley 18]

It can log to 0.01 seconds. It can do per cylinder logging and per cylinder mapping. To the point we can map separate cylinders differently. 

 

The built in Knock Sensor is very intelligent and clever. 

 

At the moment I see no need to run a Motec, Ecutek covers everything we need even in Race situations and is far far cheaper. 

 

Out of interest why do you run a Motex M150? What does it give you that Ecutek doesn't? Does the M150 do Port and Direct Injection? 

Does it log knock events per cylinder though or just the fact there is a knock event?  See graph below where i can take this log data and then retard cylinders that repeatedly have issue at certain load site.  For example, this log shows a load of timing being pulled out of cylinder 4 for almost a 2 second period because it thinks there is knock.  With a big boosted engine pulling 8 degrees from one cylinder could be robbing you 40bhp easily.  I think this is why some big dyno figure cars often aren't so fast on the road.

 

With the cylinder mapping, can it do map per cylinder or is it single value offset per cylinder?  Again as per graph below, with a problem like this where i find actual knock say from 6100-6400 rpm, if this was happening over and over again, i can reduce timing in that area only on just the cylinder that sees knock.  My testing on the GT86 has shown me that the stock inlet manifold has some big flow issues between all the cylinders and i've had to tune the ignition and fuel tables accordingly.  Again i run a lambda sensor in each header pipe to do this.  It does make a difference.

 

I run Motec because i'm a Motec dealer and have a GT86 of my own so it was the logical thing to fit.  The ecu on my car will log 2000 channels up to 1000 times per second and has 256Mb logging.  I find that very useful for what i do for a living - mapping race engines.  It has GPS, can map live, proper traction control, advanced launch control, flat shift, paddle shift, anything you want really as you can write your own code to do pretty much anything within reason.  Due to the resolution of the data you can achieve better results than lesser systems providing you put the time in - which is often the sticking point as the time involved can become huge which then costs money.  I can't really say what it can do that Ecutek can't as i've never used Ecutek hence the questions.  As i said i wish they gave out more details.

 

The M1 ecu's can do port and direct injection yes.  I agree it's too pricey though for many people who won't need to squeeze that last few percent out of everything.  Someone would have to need it to buy it unless they just had money burning a hole in their pocket and wanted it.  But for motorsport it will have its advantages over a reflash option providing its features are used to their best.

[Kodename47 446]

It can log to 0.01 seconds. It can do per cylinder logging and per cylinder mapping. To the point we can map separate cylinders differently. 

 

The built in Knock Sensor is very intelligent and clever. 

 

At the moment I see no need to run a Motec, Ecutek covers everything we need even in Race situations and is far far cheaper. 

 

Out of interest why do you run a Motex M150? What does it give you that Ecutek doesn't? Does the M150 do Port and Direct Injection?

It can't really do per cylinder logging in any decent form though. With only 1 O2 sensor you can only log the AFR of half of the cylinders or the whole 4 depending on the manifold setup. We can't see individual knock per cylinder, something that can't be done currently on the FA20, but is available on the FA20DIT. I've been in touch with ECUtek about this, they don't know and the open source guys have had no more success either. It must be a parameter on the ROM/RA somewhere for the FLKC and FBKC to be functional. My guess is that the D4S means that Bosch have created a different ECU to the Subaru norm.

Per cylinder timing is only available to Master Tuners and I've not seen actual per cylinder fuel maps, which must exist, except for ECUtek's custom cylinder fuel trims. Neither can really be mapped properly without decent time spent with det cans and a lambda sensor in each port.

Having seen how the Motec runs the FA20, it's without doubt a far superior setup. Live data and tuning is awesome.

[Church 209]

Bosch? Isn't it made by Denso (used in many car brands though. so i guess it's upto manufacturer designing firmware on to what ecu can or cannot)?