Tyre age and (lack of) traction

[GraemeI 41]

Hi guys,

 

I just got my GT86 and it has Goodyear F1 AS2 tyres on it - 225/45 R17 with around 6mm tread. 

 

I am finding there is VERY little grip available.  On a a very slight bend (5 degrees or so) uphill, accelerating in 3rd gear in the wet, it broke traction quite dramatically.  It does the same with less than 1/2 throttle in 2nd gear, from around 2,500 rpm on any sort of corner.  The front pushes across the tarmac really badly in the wet and even a fair amount in the dry.

 

From everything I have read about the car, not even the standard tyres should do this?

 

I have had my fair share of rear drive cars (with a lot more power) in my past and this isn't even 30% of the grip level which is the opposite of what I expected.

 

So, my question is:  Is this normal and to be expected, or should I be replacing my tyres asap!?  Don't want to blow £400 or so and find I am back where I started, but with a spare set of tyres 

 

Thanks,

Graeme

[Church 209]

Front that pushes? 1) if you have stock alignment, it's a bit understeer biased, 2) It's "mass transfer". You accelerate, and on RWD it's less mass on front axle, more on rear, including traction. Though in straight line or very large radius curves it should be rear wheels loosing traction first on acceleration. I'd check tire pressures & alignment.

[rob275 1817]

Whats your tyre pressures? That's the first thing that springs to mind.

[Deacon 1357]

Have you had the alignment checked?

[Lauren 2259]

Also check the date stamp on the tyres. It should be a four digit number as an example 1517 would mean the 15th week of 2017. Over two years old and they're past their best. Also that is not the correct tyre size. It should be 215/45/17. 

[GraemeI 41]

Thanks guys.

Tyre pressures are bang on stock - checked those Sunday, so 2.4 / 35psi.  The symptoms feel like double or triple those pressures - it's that slippery!

Not checked alignment yet, but this symptoms are pretty extreme so the wheels should be pointing in some weird directions!.  Car is obviously bit stiffer on the Eibach Pro Kit, which will make it push and lose grip a bit more in the wet, but my Justy with 175/65 R 14 tyres had more grip, so that's not right....

Off to Toyota tomorrow to get a free health check so will see what they say...

[Lauren 2259]

Does the Eibach Pro kit include bigger anti-roll bars as well as stiffer springs? I have a feeling it's like the Litchfield Handling Kit. If it is, it's shite which won't be helping your issue. 

[GraemeI 41]

Just now, Lauren said:

Does the Eibach Pro kit include bigger anti-roll bars as well as stiffer springs? I have a feeling it's like the Litchfield Handling Kit. If it is, it's shite which won't be helping your issue. 

Haha - nicely put   No ARB's on there as far as I know - the kit was springs only.  Also, Fensport didn't know about it (and they have nearly all the car's mod history) and I haven't checked for myself (yet).

I will be asking questions about the suspension soon as I am looking for something fairly specific, but does not seem very common...  Compliance and some travel for 95% of driving and the ability to tighten it up for 'other' uses    Along the lines of the Porsche Active Suspension basically. 

[Lauren 2259]

Just now, Innersphere said:

I will be asking questions about the suspension soon as I am looking for something fairly specific, but does not seem very common...  Compliance and some travel for 95% of driving and the ability to tighten it up for 'other' uses    Along the lines of the Porsche Active Suspension basically. 

If it's any help I have the TEIN setup with EDFC Active Pro which is active. 

[GraemeI 41]

That may well be the way forward - It's difficult to say without actually driving it though.  

Loads of things seem good in theory, then not so much in practice and I don't want to try it 5 different setups to find out!  (Chicken, I know!)

I don't actually know enough about it yet for this car to have any useful conversations, so much more investigation required - any suggestions welcome  

[GraemeI 41]

20 minutes ago, Lauren said:

Also check the date stamp on the tyres. It should be a four digit number as an example 1517 would mean the 15th week of 2017. Over two years old and they're past their best. Also that is not the correct tyre size. It should be 215/45/17. 

They are 3814, so slightly over what you said.  The Rota wheels are 7.5" wide instead of the 7" stock, so tyres slightly wider to fit.

[Lauren 2259]

19 minutes ago, Innersphere said:

They are 3814, so slightly over what you said.  The Rota wheels are 7.5" wide instead of the 7" stock, so tyres slightly wider to fit.

So a bit out of date. Not ideal and not the best tyres, but sort of okay. That tyre size is okay, though I tried it on an 8" rim and found too much sidewall flex so stuck with a 215/45 on an 8" rim. I run Yoko V105's. 

The TEIN active suspension has worked well for me over the last 75K miles and 3.5 years I've had it on. It's a bit of a pain over speedhumps but rides pretty well generally. Certainly fine for a daily driver which is what my car is. 

[GraemeI 41]

Thanks for the feedback - all very appreciated!

I have assumed the tyres have hardened with sitting around and have been looking at replacements, but wanted to check with people who should know before I did!   

At the moment, the Michelin Pilot Sport 4's are top of the list, followed by the Continentals, but open to suggestions!

That's a long time to run the TEIN setup - I am guessing you know it well!!

I am already struggling with some speed bumps and in particular my driveway and a exit hump at work, so wanting to lift the car by 5-10mm at the moment from the approx 25mm drop the Eibach's gave it.  I got spoilt by Porsche and Lotus suspension and am looking for something similar, but may be dreaming!

[Lauren 2259]

So you want a setup that lifts the car? The only option is those airbag things Adam at Tuned UK has got on top of his suspension. Could be an option which fits with coilovers I believe. I can get over speed humps but have to put wheel over square ones and drive slowly. 

[GraemeI 41]

2 hours ago, Lauren said:

So you want a setup that lifts the car? The only option is those airbag things Adam at Tuned UK has got on top of his suspension. Could be an option which fits with coilovers I believe. I can get over speed humps but have to put wheel over square ones and drive slowly. 

My apologies - not explaining myself very clearly 

I am looking to get a set of springs / dampers (or coilovers if suitable)  that sit a little higher than what I have right now (approx 25mm drop) - so about 15-20mm drop from stock, but with sensible spring and damper rates (preferably active/ variable).  

This will be primarily for road and occasional track use.  I mostly want a flowing not bumpy/jerky/skittish ride for road use (i.e. Nothing like a Z4M, or most other BMW's for that matter) and to be able to tweak and probably firm that up for track use (depending on the track).

Hope that made a little more sense! 

[Lauren 2259]

Well you should be able to achieve that with most coilovers. I drive my car and am in my 4th year of sprinting in it. It makes track set up no more than pushing a few buttons. Ride is good enough. Better in some circumstances than stock. Damping at higher speeds is much better than stock. Badly surfaced roads you'll notice more. I seem to be pretty tolerant of mine, I've adapted my driving and just go slower when it's bad residential streets that I drive around daily for work. However it's vastly superior as soon as you get a road that has a reasonable surface. Inevitably there is some compromise, but I think it's worth it. I've programmed mine to use the a good amount of the damping range, so it's soft at slow speeds but stiffens up as you go faster and add lateral and/or longitudinal G.

[GraemeI 41]

1 minute ago, Lauren said:

Well you should be able to achieve that with most coilovers. I drive my car and am in my 4th year of sprinting in it. It makes track set up no more than pushing a few buttons. Ride is good enough. Better in some circumstances than stock. Damping at higher speeds is much better than stock. Badly surfaced roads you'll notice more. I seem to be pretty tolerant of mine, I've adapted my driving and just go slower when it's bad residential streets that I drive around daily for work. However it's vastly superior as soon as you get a road that has a reasonable surface. Inevitably there is some compromise, but I think it's worth it. I've programmed mine to use the a good amount of the damping range, so it's soft at slow speeds but stiffens up as you go faster and add lateral and/or longitudinal G.

Thank you Lauren - all your input is appreciated.

I read the thread about 'Lauren's TEIN settings' with interest too    

I drove a BMW 3 series for a few years and hated the way it skipped across badly surfaced roads.  It also handled well at higher speeds, particularly with better surfaces, but that meant I was always driving everywhere too fast and generally taking risks just to enjoy the chassis and handling.

In contrast to that, the Cayman S barely noticed the road imperfections and just dealt with the surface yet still handled impeccably.  It was possible to have fun in that car within the legal speed limit on any roads and that is really what I am after again, although I am sure I will have to accept some compromises    It may well be possible with a similar setup to yours - I have been eyeing out the Flex Z and EDFC Active Pro setup, but need to understand spring rates, maximum travel etc.  I am not sure if I may be better off with separate spring/damper combo either....  Hey ho - fun & games start already.....

 

Oh, and.. I will also need to have a talk with my bank balance

[Lucas 244]

Maybe you have a super-charged or turboed car and you don't even know it, if you break traction like that haha

[GraemeI 41]

Now that would be a very pleasant surprise instead!

[nerdstrike 186]

Some of the cars I've encountered with really composed ride on dodgy surfaces had progressive spring rates, but that probably gives you a bit less roll control.

Just a silly suggestion - check the asymmetric tread on your F1's is pointing the right way. They'd be awful in the damp if the tread direction is wrong.

[Church 209]

Imho what should work well is not just progressive spring rates, but rather tech like in Ohlins DFV or at Showa Evolution cooilovers.

[GraemeI 41]

Not a silly suggestion at all.  As it turns out these tyres are confusing which doesn't help - they are Aysmetrical, but are not directional. That means the Asymetric tread points in a different direction on each side of the car.

They are fitted correctly - i.e. the Outside (Exterior in this case) is on the outside of the wheel all the way round.  The rears are more worn than the fronts (surprise surprise!), but still have 3mm.  Should still not be spinning from every junction and trying to slide round every roundabout (unintentionally anyway!).

Toyota gave the car the all clear so I am back to square one.  Suppose it's new tyres then, just to be safe!  Save these for track/drift days - lol  

[Lucas 244]

2 minutes ago, Innersphere said:

Not a silly suggestion at all.  As it turns out these tyres are confusing which doesn't help - they are Aysmetrical, but are not directional. That means the Asymetric tread points in a different direction on each side of the car.

They are fitted correctly - i.e. the Outside (Exterior in this case) is on the outside of the wheel all the way round.  The rears are more worn than the fronts (surprise surprise!), but still have 3mm.  Should still not be spinning from every junction and trying to slide round every roundabout (unintentionally anyway!).

Toyota gave the car the all clear so I am back to square one.  Suppose it's new tyres then, just to be safe!  Save these for track/drift days - lol  

Get Nankang NS-2R to eliminate your problem, but dont launch your car too hard when the tyres are hot, you will damage your driveshafts overtime

[GraemeI 41]

3 minutes ago, Church said:

Imho what should work well is not just progressive spring rates, but rather tech like in Ohlins DFV or at Showa Evolution cooilovers.

That sounds expensive 

[Church 209]

For showa's (btw, they happen to be oem twins coilovers vendors) - seems not so much.  Evolution w. said SFRD tech ~$1200-1300 MSRP, half of Ohlin's R&T price. Of course there are cons like that those probably are not serviceable in EU, as it's Japanese vendor, and i'd wait first for actual reviews by some twins owners (preferably both @ DD &track) to start consider them among alternatives.

P.S.

On second look, just like Ohlins i wouldn't consider these. They also are lower then stock. Lowering is big no-no for me. Otherwise they look like Ohlins DFV, but cheaper because they are not adjustable.