Bilstein B14 coilovers - review

[mattt 29]

On 24/02/2017 at 7:12 AM, Ade said:

A coilover with higher spring rates being more comfortable than stock is a VERY subjective thing.

 

B6 and B8 are valved exactly the same. The only difference is the b8 has a short stroke length.

 

 

Sorry to resurrect this, but is it impossible to lower a car on suitable coilovers and retain the level of comfort of stock suspension? To my mind if there's a shorter length of travel for springs and dampers to deal with then you aren't going to achieve the same level of comfort no matter how amazing the components are? 

Unfortunately I suspect it's a case of not being able to have your cake and eat it, but I would love to hear if someone's achieved this holy grail for daily drivers!

[Deacon 1357]

55 minutes ago, mattt said:

Sorry to resurrect this, but is it impossible to lower a car on suitable coilovers and retain the level of comfort of stock suspension? To my mind if there's a shorter length of travel for springs and dampers to deal with then you aren't going to achieve the same level of comfort no matter how amazing the components are? 

Unfortunately I suspect it's a case of not being able to have your cake and eat it, but I would love to hear if someone's achieved this holy grail for daily drivers!

I'd say yes but it's going to cost you.

[mattt 29]

I'd say yes but it's going to cost you.

Bilstein B16 PSS10s for example?

https://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/performance/coilover-suspension-kits/car/toyota/gt86/bilstein-b16-pss10-ride-height-and-damping-adjustable-kits-lowers-front-10-30mm-and-rear-10-30mm


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[Deacon 1357]

4 minutes ago, mattt said:

Bilstein B16 PSS10s for example?

https://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/performance/coilover-suspension-kits/car/toyota/gt86/bilstein-b16-pss10-ride-height-and-damping-adjustable-kits-lowers-front-10-30mm-and-rear-10-30mm


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I'd probably be tripleing that sort of cost and you'd want to be very careful with the valving and spring rates that you specified. It's taken me a good couple of years to get mine to that sort of place and I've been through about 8 different spring rate and valving set ups along the way.

For more reasonable costs it's tough to beat the flex a's or ohlins imho

[mattt 29]

I'd probably be tripleing that sort of cost and you'd want to be very careful with the valving and spring rates that you specified. It's taken me a good couple of years to get mine to that sort of place and I've been through about 8 different spring rate and valving set ups along the way.
For more reasonable costs it's tough to beat the flex a's or ohlins imho

Thanks for sharing your experience - it seems like it could easily turn into an obsession getting it 'just right'!

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[GraemeI 41]

In my last year of having tried stock, then progressive Eibach springs with stock shocks and now TEIN Flex A's, I can only share my experience as is.

1) I would not call the stock suspension 'comfort', or particularly compliant 

2) The most 'comfortable' overall were the Eibach's, but not necessarily for the reasons you imagine   It was very good for bumps, and because of the progressive spring rates, I never bottomed it out.  Ever.  However, particularly when the car was loaded, either with passengers or luggage of some sort, because the springs were a bit more compressed, it handled well, but the ride got 'jiggly', particularly for passengers.  As the driver, you got so used to it, you didn't notice.  I found the setup way more compliant and it didn't 'wriggle' over high frequency bumps round corners like the stock setup, so a definite improvement.

3) The TEIN's are a more complex story.  They are really very good, and on their 'softer' setting, they are a lot more comfortable than the stock or my Eibach setup.  BUT, the compromise is felt when it runs out of travel as a result of the soft compression and rebound, it really slams the chassis, particularly with the pillow ball top mounts instead of the stock rubber ones.  

As a background to that, I have probably too much mechanical sympathy, so it makes me physically wince (and usually swear) every time it happens.  I have been told by people that know more than I do that it's not a problem, but you do need to expect it on the softer settings'.  

I have largely mitigated the issue on the road with the speed and G settings (EDFC Active Pro setup) so they stiffen up progressively with speed and on all but slow speed potholes or sharp bumps, the issue is mostly eliminated, but obviously with the side effect of being a bit stiffer.  Lighter wheels also improved it a lot.  It's a great setup for a daily, with the ability to make it stiffer still for track use.  As @Deacon can probably testify though, it is a compromise on track, as it just can't go stiff enough, and because the compression and rebound are tied together, it causes some compromise there too.  As always, it entirely depends on what you want or need.  Mine has to be a daily driver with some track capability and the Flex A's work well for that.   That may change one day and the whole obsession thing may become reality  

I think it's probably possible to get better than the Flex A's, but to echo @Deacon, it will definitely have a large price tag associated  

[MartinT 514]

I can reflect your experience with the Eibachs, my H&R springs are similarly progressive and generally very good. Yes, they can get jiggly on occasion but they largely have a good balance between handing and ride quality.

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[Deacon 1357]

I would definitely agree with what @GraemeI said about the OEM suspension and especially the Flex A's. I'd be very interested to try the American CSG spec version of the Flex A's and see if the changes they've made to the valving (presumably firming it up) do stop some of the bottoming out over big bumps and stop them being too soft on track.

Preeuming the car is being lowered on Flex A's, rear LCA's that lower the car rather than using the damper to do so would probably also be very worthwhile as the rear dampers are just so ridiculously short and this would enable the lowering without sacrificing the damper travel.

[Church 209]

Potential problem with CSG spec Flex A might be - their valving probably is modified more for track then for street.  It may work fine in "getting more track performance then what one pays for", as i recall CSG guys posting that they applied their experience with more upscale tein SRCs, but i have suspicions that daily driving compliance may suffer. Firmer? Possible, one should check rates specced, but if more comfortable then "normal" Flex A? Less susceptible to bottom out due firmer rates is just part of a picture. From other potential issues might be warranty & maintenance, as i guess that to perform any work on CSG spec A-s one will need to ship back overseas to them, not to some local Tein shop. At least that was case with RCE Tarmac-s, even if KW is one that made them, KW cannot service them directly.

For street comfort .. i'd probably look first at options that will work with stock rubber top mounts. At least even on stock shocks camber plates for me introduced unbearable NVH issues making me switch back to rubber top mounts, so i guess, it's possible that . Ohlins, KW V1/3, RCE Tarmac 0/2, Bilstein B6 and so on. And preferably without any lowering. There is no free cake (at least in low budget offerings). If one lowers, for reduced bumpless travel one needs to firm rates. That doesn't sound to me "comfort/compliance oriented". So is lowering for looks/wheel gap or in whichever wording that is reasoned really-really THAT must-have thing? Or if it's must have, one should just bite the bullet and live with cons that choice according one's priorities bring. Or if one decides that good ride without bottoming out matters more then lowering, why not rise to stock height back?

[thetyrant 30]

Tried a fair few setups on the 2 x GT86's ive owned and for road use the Ohlins kit is far above everything else, its very nearly "have your cake and eat it" and im VERY fussy :D... Ohlins low speed comfort is a little firmer than stock setup but once your traveling at speed it just soaks it all up and a different planet to Tein or HKS coilover kits i also tried (as well as Eibach lowered stock dampers)

Standard Ohlins kit is a bit soft sprung for track use especially at rear but thats easy remedied with some firmer springs if you want it more track focused, these dampers can take much firmer spring rate if required.

Lack of damper travel is a real problem on these cars like many these days which makes it hard for suspension companies to get enough travel to cope with uk roads! , also as with most things its all personal preference so best to try and get a ride/drive in a car with kit you would like to try.

 

[GraemeI 41]

I forgot to mention....

I have not noticed any increase in NVH with the pillowball mounts, and I was particularly looking for that as I was concerned.  Obviously, the active setup means you hear the rather loud stepper motors doing their thing when adjusting, but happy to accept that.  If you don't go for active, then that won't apply.

The other thing was I actually raised my suspension by 10mm when I installed the Flex A's, so instead of a 25mm drop with the Eibach springs, I brought it back up to just a 15mm drop, which helps with the travel issue, but clearly not the firmness of the soft setting

The only other car I have been in that had the compliance and ability to soak up the bumps and keep the tyres in contact with the road was the Porsche Cayman S with PASM, which would no doubt cost 3 arms and 4 legs to replicate, so I am pretty happy with the Flex A's.  I am sure if Ohlins had an equivalent active setup, it would be amazing, and also cost roughly 5 times more than I paid  

[Church 209]

thetyrant: what i don't like in Ohlins kit - it already is far from low budget kit. Pitty they simply discontinued original kit, instead of keep selling it alongside softened updated kit. Throwing different springs on it makes hard choice for budget-minded. As for damper travel .. imho KW ones (and RCE based on those) had even more travel then stock, no?

[thetyrant 30]

Yes but good damping tech costs money so if you want that its gona cost, to be fair to ohlins it is actually not badly priced when you look at other high quality dampers, comparing it to Bc or Tein etc is not comparing apples with apples