Feedback for sprint photos

[Steeps 294]

Before reading/responding I'd like to point out this is not a begging post or a "woe is me, buy my photos" post. I'm after a bit of feedback regarding sprint photos and how I can make them better. I thought I'd post here first rather than asking the whole group on bookface as you know me better than just the person who turns up to events to take photos.

Looking at my data over the last year I was running break even with time spent shooting and essential costs, but with investing in new kit for better photos and then the loss of the Javelin cars I've hit the point where I'm running at a loss. Usually I write this off as part of the hobby but the lens I purchased is purely for motorsport (covering sprints) and I don't have any other use for it.

I know opinions on photography differs, some want every photo from every event while others are happy to view watermarked gallery snaps to remember their day by. Others just want one set to show off the car and are not interested in the rest. The issue is finding the balance where photos can be viewed and what I can earn to buy a supercharger which is completely essential. I've tried a few different methods on the site to find a balance between generating sales and maximum coverage, my first set had the watermark on the base of the photo which people just cropped off and posted. I moved to a watermark in the middle of the photo but I still managed to find these photos on car "for sale" adverts. I tried limited views where only 2-3 of each car could be viewed but that hurt sales even more, so much I often wonder how those relying on blind selling (no previews) actually manage.

Ideally I'd love to be paid to turn up, shoot and distribute photos online for everyone to enjoy but I'm told the budget isn't available for that, so I used the same model that most other photographers use to price it hoping a percentage would buy photos and any extra is a bonus. It's a good incentive to capture photos people actually want to have and share but it needs the numbers to work. With only half the field full and with most of them regulars who probably have more than enough photos I'm currently not even covering fuel and insurance costs, I wouldn't mind so much if I had the Javelin series with lots of fresh faces to offset the cost so I need to change the sales model otherwise my accountant friend who keeps me in check is going to go nuts.

Happy to discuss it either on here or in private message, here's a few ideas that I've been thinking about:

• Selling on the day, not too keen on this one as it takes time to sort and select photos (see sorting below). Trackday photographers usually shoot in the morning and sort after lunch but with sprints I'm out on track all day as there's limited opportunities. It is possible to do this with sprints as there's essentially 6 runs before lunch but it limits where I can take photos from so there's 40% less available photos and location opportunities.
• Have an incentive to pre-order/pay for photos (I do have facilities for this) on the day, then collect online later.
• Photos included in the entry fee. If the fee went up £5/6/8/10 but photos were included would this be off putting or an incentive? I'd have to negotiate with TSS/Javelin about this as it would affect them.
• Cutting corners: currently every batch of photos is culled from about 50 to 20, removing duplicates, out of focus shots or photos cropped wrong. I've seen too many news stories where a photographer is slated for handing over rubbish photos so I make sure only good ones are available. After this they are sorted, resized and renamed. If I reduce this process to sorting only then it halves my processing time but to me it feels like a lesser product.
• Completely remove the preview galleries, post 1-2 of each car on bookface watermarked and links to buy them. Reduces the risk of copying but then you don't really see what you're buying.
• Pricing structure changes: Every event comes to about £110 in photo costs at the current price which sounds a lot, but it's less than 7% of the overall cost entrants pay once other expenses are taken into account. What would you consider to be a fair price for ~20 assorted track day photos per event?
• Full season photos, how much of a discount would you expect or be willing to pay to have the full season available? I am able to print and supply a CD in a case at the end of the season to be posted out as a bonus.
• High upfront cost followed by cheaper repeats: This one I am considering to try and boost full season take-up of photos, where the first round of photos costs a bit more but each event after is heavily discounted... Only really works if people buy the first/second round to begin with but would also work better with shared cars. (For example £30 for the first round then £8/round after)
• Corner action shots: cameras are a bit like cars where they wear down with mileage, I typically put on 2-4000 shots on a camera over a sprint. Anything over 100k for this model of camera is considered high mileage and not expected to go past 150k. They are capable of 8FPS which means it can take ~25 action photos of a car going around a corner in 3 seconds, useful if there's something you want to look at on the car's handling. I can't do this for every car as sorting/memory space/camera wear would be excessive if photos are not bought, but it could be done for an extra charge beforehand.
• Video: I've not tested this fully yet to see how it reacts, but the cameras are capable of shooting video in place of stills. To sacrifice a run or two of photos it is possible to film the car through a corner/series of corners from the side of the track for you to edit in to your onboard footage. Again due to memory space this would have to be arranged (and paid for) beforehand. Usually stills can be taken while video is happening but I think this is too disruptive.
• Social media: I've not used bookface properly in over 3 years but recently started posting links on there for updates, galleries and general shots... should I increase social media presence with my own page to get likes which is rarely updated?
• Hire an assistant to do all of the above. This one I would LOVE, but as I can't cover my own expenses it would be very difficult to even consider this. It would open up the possibility of shooting video along side stills, or cover a different corner at the same time, then we could sort and sell photos in the afternoon while more shots are being collected. My insurer would also have kittens so it would have to add a lot of value/sales to make it worthwhile.

It's a lot of work and I enjoy it, but it's getting to the point where it would be more cost effective for me to enter the series than it is to shoot it. Again this is not a begging post, I am asking for feedback to make the photography work better for the sprint. If I don't get any good feedback I'll film an advert asking for £3 a month to help a poor photographer fund his lens purchasing habit. If you don't want your comments public I'm quite happy to discuss over PM or at the bar at the next event.

For those who don't know where the photos are: http://sprintseries.dansteeples.co.uk

 

[faith 237]

I feel like you've put so much effort into this post that I want to give a really useful answer with constructive feedback.  But I'm a bit rubbish, I do like the idea of buying something on the day, but see how this is difficult.  I know it must be frustrating when people take your photos and use them even with the watermarks on, but I definitely like to see all the photos before I buy.  I think giving people the option to add the price to the entry is a good idea, I would be happy adding an extra £10.   I definitely think having a more social media presence would be helpful too.

Oh and btw, thanks for the link, just purchased my photos xx

[rob275 1817]

Social media presence is a no brainier. I have a mate who started a business (OK it's not photography but it was a startup business with 0 income at the time so I feel it's a valid comparison really) within a few months he was making £2000-3000 a month. He's since stopped being present on social media and he makes perhaps £150-200 a month, purely from search traffic and repeated customers. So you can see the dramatic effect it has really...

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[Lauren 2259]

When I take a car on track for the first time, I'll normally buy a set of photos. But really that tends to be it. I've been competing in the TSS for over two years now. In all honesty, photos don't really interest me, I've already got loads. But should there be a photo of my car that I'll put on my wall, then I'll buy a set just for that one photo. But it hasn't happened yet, though I'll happily admit there have been some good pics, just not enough for me to buy a set. When I did my first ever round in 2013, I bought a set. 

I think the problem you've got is that most regulars will have little interest in buying a set of pics, though they may buy the occasional set from a round. But I think you will meet some resistance if you ask people to pay for an entire season of pics and this is added to the entry. The problem is who really needs 100's of pics of their car at all the rounds and wants to pay £18 per set? I have no problem with an option to add pics to an entry, as long as it's an option of course. 

I wish you the best, but I honestly think that it's the newbies that are most likely to buy a set of pics and I expect that's what you'll find from your data. I can certainly see why taking pics at trackdays would be far more viable, but I'm not sure it translates to the sprint. 

[Keethos 842]

I second what Lauren said, you'll struggle with the same people each round at the TSS. Hopefully we'll get more newbies attending which will hopefully net you more sales....or maybe not even newbies but the usual suspects who have a new car maybe......maybe you need to sabotage people's cars to force them to get a new car which mean buying some new pics Would offering single photos be a viable option? To counteract those who like the odd pic and don't want to buy a whole set? More smaller sales rather then fewer bigger sales?

[Mike 458]

Can't really add much to what has always been said. I've probably got enough photos by now, but then I much prefer the wet weather photos - you'll probably notice the only 2 sets I did buy were Snetterton & Cadwell.

[DextersTechLab 11]

hi Dan,

Lauren and i have been doing trackdays for years and from time to time bought photos. The problem is once you have done a couple, it all gets a bit meh and you don't bother unless there is some dramatic shot that you must have on the wall but that happens rarely. With trackdays you always have the first timers who generally do buy photos but on something like the sprint sales i would expect sales will tail off over time as the same people are there time after time.

Not sure what to suggest going forward, hopefully the numbers of entrants in the series will go up and it'll make it easier for everyone.

[nerdstrike 186]

Photography is a really crappy way to make any money since digital cameras, and a really good way to lose money for sure! Thousand pound lenses, thousand pound bodies, processing time, software costs, limited respect for copyright... I don't think you'll break even on all but the best days. I found one of my photos being used unattributed by someone I knew to promote their business a while back. I would have given it freely if they'd asked, but it just made me dislike them.

Of your options, I reckon you should go with your same day idea to catch some good feels from the day. A good shot is still promising even if it hasn't been through photoshop, and you don't have to process so many if the customer has already made their selection. Based on what you've got in your galleries, trading some moving shots for a few well composed/lit static shots of cars might also pull in some interest. In the end, the only car picture we're likely to buy on impulse is one that makes us think we/it look great.

Stay away from video - it's not Top Gear, and the footage won't be terribly exciting, plus the investment in time and data will be heavy. Better off renting out GoPros for the day or something.

One of the paradoxes is of car nuts is how willing they are to spend on their car, versus a tenner here and there for something that doesn't directly enhance the vehicle.

[86alex 26]

The option to buy individual prints - on a price sliding scale based on number of photos being purchased at once (starting off pricier for one photo and getting progressively cheaper as you buy more in bulk) could increase impulse buy sales. Also, a discount on buying all the season prints at once (with a bit of discount) could help sales.

I also agree on the marketing part. You already leave cards out - but maybe a few posters at events near sign on and at the exit doors could help people unaware or living in a bubble ;-). Social media works but only for people who already know about you without expensive pay-per-click advertising and promotion.

[S18 RSG 429]

I may regret chiming in here, as you may not like what I'm going to say, but you asked for feedback, positive or negative.

I am yet to get involved in TSS, but certainly hope to in the future. If I was to attend my first event, and a few professional photos of the car were a couple of quid option on top of entry, I'd almost certainly do it...the first time. After that, unless TSS is on a particularly special track (I'm talking Nurburgring, Spa, Silverstone etc.), I would have almost no interest whatsoever in paying for more photos. I have my own camera equipment worth in excess of £5k, as I'm sure plenty others do. If I wanted professional photos of my own car, I'd bring my dad, who's a phenomenal photographer, and have him do it. He would also be more than happy to stand around all day, taking pictures of other peoples' cars, and would post them up on the site or his Flickr page for anyone to use (as he already does at Japfest, PCAD @ Combe and plenty of other events).

I haven't taken into consideration that photography isn't allowed at TSS however. I doubt that's the case, but if it is then my initial point stands. I'd do it once, but not again unless it was an exceptional circumstance.

If you're a full time photographer, I understand that you need to make money, but there are so many better ways of doing that than going to a small race series full of regular drivers expecting them to pay for photos they probably already have. I do however, agree with what a few people have said. If you want to make some money from this, you may be better suited to offering individual shots for a lower price, than a package of shots for a big price. People would be more interested in paying £5 for 2 or 3 shots, than paying £18 for 2 or 3 shots they like, then a bunch they don't want.

[Steeps 294]

Thanks for the feedback so far. Certainly a lot to think about. I started writing this post this morning and added to it as the replies came in, so if you've edited your post since posting I haven't read it for the response

Lauren: I know the thought of £18/set per entry sounds scary but it wouldn't be anywhere near that if the whole group was signed up, the current price was a guesstimate based on how many sales I was expecting in the first year vs how much I needed to cover myself (it was running at about 12%, needed it to be higher but it was a good start... however that was with a full field) but with a field size of 40 to cover the same amount is about £5 per entry. My fixed costs purely on fuel/insurance/kit maintenance is £200 per event (no hotel/food included in that cost, I choose to do that for the social), that's before paying myself for 2-3 days of time, so on an entry of 40 my costs would be covered and with 70 it would pay for some of the time. As a comparison if I had the Javelin events too this fixed cost would only have been £120 per event, as some of these fixed costs were based on getting the Javelin days I'm offsetting that extra £80 with alternative work but it still requires a 16% uptake of photos which I'm not getting.

Keethos: New cars haven't made a difference, 3-4 of the regulars are running new cars this season. 2 of them used watermarked photos to sell their cars at the end of last season. Technically I could send an invoice for the usage but that would piss off more people and give my rep a hit, hurting long term sales. Alternatively I could stop publishing photos of their cars but again it's a negative attitude which I don't want. The problem with breaking up photos to smaller/single options is people get picky with which photo they want out of a set, the time to go through the process of selecting/buying and then the potential loss of a sale of a full pack. If an individual photo was £12 but the full pack was £18... for that £6 you'd probably be happy with the other 19 photos in the pack.

Edit: as I was writing this a new car bought a set.

Mike: Snet was just before I started, I don't know who covered the event but I've tried to get hold of them as it's the only round not covered by a gallery. The last few times I've done trackdays I've not bought photos as they've either been the same as what I already have or they've not been interesting enough (one photographer offered 40 photos of the front of my car, no panning or rear shots!) so I understand.

Rob: My concern with social media is I don't do enough events to justify having my own page. This year I've only got the 6 TSS events but if I had the other 5 Javelin, Rockingham, JAE/japfest, car shows, smaller meets and a handful of larger sporting events then I'd have regular updates and content to actually make it interesting. I've had to offset photography costs this year with a handful of weddings I would normally have turned down so I've not even had the time to look at attending more events. An inactive social media page can be quite damaging.

Faith: Any feedback is good feedback, I don't like buying something without seeing it first which is why full galleries are posted and it's finding the balance. I think I might have a solution for the watermark issues.

Dexterslab: I agree once you have a few it's a cost for little benefit. That was why I was looking into adding a small cost into the entry fee or making it cheap enough it almost becomes a non cost or beer money. Double Blyton at the start of this season hasn't helped as it's the same backdrops, so I've tried different places to stand out on circuit along with the usual classic action places.

Nerdstrike: The first few events went through a photoshop batch filter while I got the hang of taking shots in different conditions, quick adjustments to shots but when you're processing 1500 files it adds a whole day to processing, since upgrading kit and with dual cards I've had both raw and jpg off the card, the last 2 events are purely jpg with no processing, that is straight out of the camera. The shots on FB are processed because they need the wow factor. It still takes at least a day to sort, check focus (don't want crap posted) and batch rename/upload.

The idea for video comes from the few that publish their in-car gopro footage, make it available for those who wanted to include it in their own videos but obviously on request only as the file sizes are large. I do have a couple of Gopro's that could be loaned out, but I'd have to invest in some more solid mounting and action cameras can be had for as little as £50 now anyway.

86alex: Will certainly look into the pricing for singles/whole season. Also the idea of more active track advertising is something I've looked into but hadn't got around to doing. I'd already started mocking up some banners (I do this for the 9-5) but when I saw the list for round 1 being mostly regulars and quite low I didn't get them printed due to cost. I'll see how the feedback continues because it could influence the design a bit. If I'm looking at long term then banner advertising or bigger flyers would be of use.

S18 RSG: I did say all feedback is welcome, a bit disappointed at the scale you'd give away for free and that has been a bit of a sore point at a couple of events last year. I had someone give away the photos for free on me at a nice sunny day at Cadwell, my sales halved. He told everyone there to contact him for photos because they were free, then offered to cover the series, I was dropped and he got the part. Now he's trying to sell photos at the events, complaining there's 5000 photos to sort through, doesn't have time to get them up quickly, "contact me if you want to see them" etc... but for now it's not an issue because it's a new series and everyone is fresh faced and paying, but once everyone has photos the sales will drop. This is why my costs are now higher and I'm trying to find alternative ways to make it work better. It was a lot worse than this but that's all I'm prepared to say on the forum.

If it's too sunny and everyone's getting burned, I'll be there. If it's chucking it down and people are waiting in their cars for their runs, I'll be there. If I've had a rough week and feel ill, I'll make sure I'm booked into a hotel the night before so I can be there. The series photography was advertised because the last guy pulled out as sales were poor and no one in their list could cover every event, but coverage was still wanted. It could probably be covered by people giving them away for free but are they going to be there when it's a downpour, or if something else needs doing at home? I've committed my time to cover these events and have the insurance in place to be trackside, but if the financial incentive isn't there why would anyone want to cover it in the rain, or have 1500-3000 photos sorted shortly after the event for people to view. There are no restrictions currently on who can take photos at events however I'm usually the only one trackside which is why events like Blyton and Woodbridge are better for sales than tracks like Croft and Cadwell where public viewing is easy. I don't have any issues if you want to bring your dad along for your own photos as you can get the shots you want, but making them all publicly available and advertising it for everyone else is what would make it pointless me being there.

I'm not a full time photographer and to be honest I don't want to be, the problem I've got is I've been made redundant in the past and I don't ever want to be in that situation again with no income, so I do photography work to keep myself prepared and ready in case it happens again and usually paid for work so I can justify keeping this level of equipment available to shoot with. I'm not at risk of it now in my current job but I can't shake the thought away, I could sell all the kit I have and buy new alloys, BBK, suspension and a supercharger! With TSS I was never expecting to make a fortune from it, but covering it long term offers other avenues in the future which are of interest and I'd like to reduce running it at a loss.

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When the series first started obviously everyone was fresh, sales were good and there was outside media attention from magazines etc so it was a good market. I know the person before me had the same issues as me and ditched the price in an effort to drum up sales so I knew it was a risk. On the positive side there's 30 more places available for new faces who will probably want photos which is why I don't want to give up on this.

I've still got some ideas to try, just wanted some feedback first. The comments so far have been great

 

Pricing wise I'm toying with this idea:

Single event: £20 - available online or on the day. Email link sent. CD £3 more either collect or posted

Full season up front: £60 (Includes CD at end, or £70 for USB stick. Photos emailed after every event)

Full season at end of season: £80 (Includes CD at end, £90 for USB stick)

Multi-driver: 50% discount for an extra driver in the same car (not available for single/3shot ideas)

I think I can work the watermarking to my advantage to cover some costs to maintain these prices, or try to negotiate £3-5 on the entry fee - I don't think this would be possible unless the field fills up as track costs/insurance for TSS will be fixed just like mine are.

 

Some other ideas:

USB "Pay on the day": £30 at the first event includes a usb3 keyring and the first round, then £10 at each event before/after prizes. - keyring idea so it stays on the keys of the TSS car instead of getting lost. 

Single photo: £8 - would have to use the online system and manually email the photo but it is possible. With some lessons in PHP I could probably automate this too. I don't want to drop this much further as I need to make the packs look like good value.

Three photo: £13 - as above. Unless I invested in a terminal for viewing all photos/sorting on site it would be a headache to do.

 

Again, really appreciate the feedback so far!

 

[GT86Jay 202]

One thing I think i'd be looking at is buying 1 or 2 photos from each round at the end of the season. I don't really want 10 photos of round 1 and 10 photos of round 2 etc. 

But 1 or 2 from each round. I know in the past other trackday photographers have allowed me to just pick and add individual images to a basket. 

Also if you want any help with PHP or some pointers let me know. I've got a team of PHP devs who would be happy to help. 

[S18 RSG 429]

Just to respond to my own bit:

The reason I bring up giving away pictures for free, is because just like you say, my dad, or myself depending on who goes, aren't there for every event. However, when we do go to events, we don't walk up to drivers and say "We're taking photos today, check out our website and you can buy them". We generally turn up for our own pleasure of being there to enjoy the event, and take pictures. We then share those pictures across various platforms and forums, and offer to send high res copies to owners. Something my dad offers, with his wildlife and landscape photography, is framed images, canvases or similar. As someone else mentioned above, the digital aspect of modern photography means that an email containing lots of photos seems so much less valuable than even a single framed print. At least that way you're getting something physical for your money. Maybe that's a better idea?

Back to the first point I touched on however, you mentioned that you've dedicated your time and money to covering the event, and you'll turn up come rain or shine. The way I would look at that is, if you're the only one there and you're not getting sales, people clearly didn't want photos of their cars in those conditions (assuming rain/grey skies etc.). It's fine to say you have the insurance etc. to cover it, and you need to claw back costs, but if I were you, I wouldn't even attend the event unless I knew I had guaranteed sales, or I accepted the fact that I was going to make a loss. Maybe it's a better idea to offer your services on the forums, and get orders beforehand, rather than turning up, taking pictures then asking for money for those pictures. I know you want to have a positive reputation, but being practical with your time and money doesn't make you a bad person.

I'm glad you cleared up that you're not full time, because that now means we're in very similar situations (aside from the redundancy thing). I bought all my equipment for personal use, because I enjoy taking photos. Not to make money from it (I think going in to anything with the goal of making money is a poor choice, you've gotta love it first, if you're good at it, money will follow). As I'm not a professional, I don't feel like I'm worthy of charging people for photos. Sure, my snaps are every bit as good as a professionals, as I'm sure yours are, but I don't feel that qualifies me to charge for something I do for fun. When it comes to framed shots/canvases, everyone expects to pay, because they're getting something in return. These days, digital photography can be done by anyone with a mobile phone, and the shot, for digital use, will be almost every bit as good as a professional shot (especially after compression), so that fact really devalues the hobbyist photographer trying to make a few bucks. That's my mindset on it anyway.

As a final thought, a better idea might be to follow this business model or similar (works for lots of photographers and artists I know):

Continue to cover TSS. Take the same shots as you already do, but use your website to offer packages. Package 1 would contain high resolution copies of 2 or 3 of the customers' favourite shots for around £5 (you're quite likely to sell quite a few of these packages per session). Package 2 would offer perhaps 10 high res shots, digitally, for maybe £10-15 (for those who like more than 2 or 3 images, £10 or so isn't too bad). Finally, you could offer a custom package, where you showcase all shots of that car on the site, and allow people to choose a package of as many individual shots as they want, and have a set price per photo, with discounts for multiple. 

This way, at least you're letting the customer decide what they want and letting them pay what they can afford, instead of forcing everyone into one package where they must spend a set amount and get every picture. People like being able to buy what they want, not what they're told to buy. If you're going to continue charging for your services, at least put the customers' thoughts in front of your own

[Nicebiscuit 655]

The only thing I'd add to that is to try to get shots that the amateurs can't. I assume you're granted wider access to the track than us spectators. So I'd focus on cornering shots etc at angles we just can't get. For me it's always low angles on bends that really stand out. Shots on straights are a bit 'meh'

I took a few shots for fun at Blyton, but the limiting factor (apart from having the wrong camera due to forgetting to charge batteries... Doh!) was that however much kit I'd got I wasn't going to get a very interesting action shot from the vantage point available to me... You should have an advantage there.

For what it's worth I think the prints are a good idea. Any old hack can take a shot that looks ok on Facebook. Takes skill to get a sharp action shot that really looks good blown up to an A4 print.

I also think that you're going to make more at track days than a series, unless someone is prepared to pay you for promo work. You need turnover of customers.

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[Nicebiscuit 655]

Agree about the nicking of watermarked shots though - that's bad form. No ones obliged to buy but they shouldn't nick them...

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[S18 RSG 429]

17 minutes ago, Nicebiscuit said:

Agree about the nicking of watermarked shots though - that's bad form. No ones obliged to buy but they shouldn't nick them...

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As fair as that point is, no doubt, I can see this from the other perspective as well. If I saw someone had taken a picture of MY car, and was trying to sell pictures of it for their profit, especially if I hadn't given my permission, I would say taking those pictures for myself would actually be quite an under-reaction.

Think about it this way, it's quite likely that there are one or two people at TSS who have no idea that Dan takes these pictures, or at least how he edits them and where he posts them. If one day, such a person were to stumble across a website advertising pictures of their car, with full numberplate on show, and let's say, they hadn't been entirely truthful on their insurance policy, that could get someone in A LOT of trouble. It's a dangerous game to play.

I know that last part isn't entirely relevant to the original post, but I'm gonna stick with it.

[Nicebiscuit 655]

That is a very good point... I think blanking the number plate at least probably should be a starting point. I know a lot of people don't like number plate data online at all. (I personally lost the will to care some time back...)

But as for permission, that's not how copyright works. The law is clear - you can take photos of whatever you like if you have permission of the landowner of the land you are standing on (note - not the subject). Then you as the photographer own that photo.

You might not agree with it, but if you think about it for a while, without the law operating this way photography would essentially be impossible. At the same time it gives people a degree of privacy cause I can't stand in your garden snapping photos of you (although legally speaking I can over the fence*)

* I haven't actually done this **

** Or have I? £500 to the usual account to get the negatives back

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[Mike 458]

Everyone is told in the briefing that Dan will be taking photos. Can't remember if Javelin people say so or not, but I'm certain at some briefings I've been at they've said that if you don't want pictures of your car taking to mention it to the photographer after the briefing.

[Steeps 294]

Thanks S18 RSG for the feedback again, just to clear up a few bits as a follow on. Regarding the weather the sales don't tend to drop when it rains (only done 2 wet events so more data required), but you get a lot less people in the spectator area so there's less people offering general spectator shots on FB than in the dry, so really they become the only photos of the day that people want to see. I've not had an event that I would consider a total failure it's just with the numbers as they are now it hurts, and I know it will be hurting for TSS too as there's track rental and Javelin to pay for.

Physical print could be something to consider. I built a standalone photobooth with digital only/onscreen photos (option to print all photos through snapfish etc after event for couple to post out) for a family wedding, just from that event it got 2 bookings which weren't even planned so there's an option to pay for a dyesub printer as I have some demand that would justify the cost... again the problem is allowing people to preview the photos beforehand while I'm sorting them into folders. If I finished photo runs early I could probably do this. Offsite printing is a bit more costly but if there is demand for larger print I could look into offering it. I could offer to print keyrings *shudder* as I still have a box of them from the nightclub events.

The risk of breaking up the packages is how many people who currently pay £18 for a set would now drop to ~£6 for a single photo. If one person drops from £18 to £6 I'd need 2 more sales at £6 just to be level again. I'd need uptake to increase from 12% to 30% which looking at the responses of "I already have enough photos" isn't going to happen. If I had that commitment that every event you are going to want a handful of photos, paid in advance then I can drop the price (the idea of USB "pay on the day" and full season packages). When I revamp the site I will look in to the packages ideas to see if it has any legs, but it might be next season before I get that up and running fully.

Insurance issue and photo awareness: At the start of every track event the photographer is introduced and people are made aware that photos will be published online, I am usually in the room when the briefing happens and at track days that I have been on Javelin in their briefings do say if you don't want your number plate online it needs to be covered or the photographer made aware not to publish those photos. No one has ever come up to me before/during/after to ask for photos to be removed or for no photos to be taken of their cars. I do not publish pictures of damage, if there's a spin or some gravel kicked up these are posted as good action shots but I do not publish any damage unless either asked to or if the car is presented at a show in such a state.

Jay: I could look into an end of season selection but it's getting the commitment through the season that I'm hoping to get rather than a boost of sales at the end. I'll do a bit of research in to what other photographers offer to see how they do it.

[S18 RSG 429]

8 minutes ago, Nicebiscuit said:

That is a very good point... I think blanking the number plate at least probably should be a starting point. I know a lot of people don't like number plate data online at all. (I personally lost the will to care some time back...)

But as for permission, that's not how copyright works. The law is clear - you can take photos of whatever you like if you have permission of the landowner of the land you are standing on (note - not the subject). Then you as the photographer own that photo.

You might not agree with it, but if you think about it for a while, without the law operating this way photography would essentially be impossible. At the same time it gives people a degree of privacy cause I can't stand in your garden snapping photos of you (although legally speaking I can over the fence*)

That wasn't my point at all. I never mentioned copyright, law or anything else, I mentioned the one thing you actually agreed with, I wouldn't like it. Considering we were earlier talking about having a "good reputation", pissing people off 

However, talking about laws, I'm not entirely sure how it works by including the numberplate in the picture. Surely, if you're selling a picture of a generic car (i.e no numberplate, no way of linking it to an owner), then that's fine. But I would suggest it's walking a fine line to make photographs available to the general public, which has information that can be linked to an owner contained within the image. Not sure if there's any documentation to support/oppose this, and not saying it is one way or the other, but it's something to bare in mind.

[S18 RSG 429]

2 minutes ago, Mike said:

Everyone is told in the briefing that Dan will be taking photos. Can't remember if Javelin people say so or not, but I'm certain at some briefings I've been at they've said that if you don't want pictures of your car taking to mention it to the photographer after the briefing.

I'd suggest there's quite a difference between "taking photos", and "selling unedited photos of your car to the general public". I could understand if Dan personally messaged each driver after the event, and only made photos of their car available to them, but to have them free for anyone to buy, with the numberplate in the picture? I wouldn't opt in to that.

[Mike 458]

3 minutes ago, S18 RSG said:

I'd suggest there's quite a difference between "taking photos", and "selling unedited photos of your car to the general public". I could understand if Dan personally messaged each driver after the event, and only made photos of their car available to them, but to have them free for anyone to buy, with the numberplate in the picture? I wouldn't opt in to that.

Swap "taking photos" with "will be taking photos and will be putting them on his site for people to buy a few days after event" or whatever the official wording is - it's pretty clear in the briefing they'll be publicly available.

If you were bothered about pictures of your car with your number plate on, just slap some tape over it, but then you'd need to do that at car shows as well?

[S18 RSG 429]

Swap "taking photos" with "will be taking photos and will be putting them on his site for people to buy a few days after event" or whatever the official wording is - it's pretty clear in the briefing they'll be publicly available.

If you were bothered about pictures of your car with your number plate on, just slap some tape over it, but then you'd need to do that at car shows as well?

This is why I knew I'd regret answering this post, because people are far too quick to jump to conclusions and take things out of context when they disagree.

Jump a little further back through my posts. I said I can see it from another perspective. I did not say this is my opinion. There are plenty of people who use show plates at shows, and remove their plates on track, who I'm sure would refuse Dan's service. I'm trying to make people aware of the other side of the argument, as a discussion with no counter is a pointless discussion.

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[Steeps 294]

From the photography side:

I will happily supply and fit bright pink duct tape to cover your plate for £1 per event, £1.50 for black (all about the upsell!) but it is made clear in the briefings that I am there to take and sell photos. If someone's dad is taking and giving away photos for free on forums that is something I have no control over so better to cover it 

[S18 RSG 429]

Well, clearly my opinion was as unwelcome as I feared judging by the decline in maturity. I'll leave it there. I wish you success.

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