Water Methanol Injection discussion

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Since a posted by accident on the banana tread and my last tread in regards got to much for some; ) ive decided to start a new slate

Injection methanol/ water mix initial facts and views. Since I'm the first gt86 / brz to install the kit in the u.k it was all guess work. What psi for the mix to inject in at and size of jet/nozzle.

With good mathematics on Bruce SuperPro Morris part and the handy work of his brother alfie we got to a do3 nozzle which is small as they go up to do17. We set my initial injection at 8 psi.

The install was done over night with hints that abbey Motorsports Mark Gillam has done a immaculate s.c install. The devils own kit is cleanly done without a hint unless a keen eye looked into the engine bay and popping the boot you will never know I had it. Wires are tucked away, the nozzle is discreet and the rocker switches are of OEM quality even the low tank led (see pics).

On initial drive out I was 50-50 nervous & excited. But after 15 mins of beating on the car I could see the red light switch on telling me the meth pump was active at 8 psi.

Point to note my average AIT (air intake temps) prior the methanol water injection where 54-56 degrees and I'd peak at 64 degrees. You would never dream of touching your engine bay let alone throttle body.

Now with a 8psi setting ie boost level the meth kicks in at I was seeing average temps of 42-44 degrees and peaking at 56 but it would rapidly drop right back down to average once off hard throttle.

I though wow. 30mins in I said let's set it at 6psi.. Ragged the car up and down the a303 for another 45mins... Omg my temps averaged at 36-39 degrees and peaked at 51 but within seconds coming off the throttle I was back down to 36-39 degrees. Bruce said amazing but there is more gains "we will adjust the pump to a stronger setting and let those down even further. After smashing the car harder than I've ever done even stock a parked up just to soak in all the information.... Man this has made an amazing sprintex gt86 even better.. I actually put my hand right on my throttle body without testing for heat first it was just above warm, if I had no meth you would of gone a & e with 3 rd degree burns. No joke. Actually eveny oil temps have dropped by 5 degrees.

Without meth once in the high 60s the car was not as pokey due to the temps but now you can feel she is ready to go like she hit the Columbian marching powder all the time every time. More testing and reviews to come peeps. Can't wait for abbey to see what they think once its there. ; )

Reading this back it seems I'm to biased towards devils own. So all reviews no matter how good has negative points. 1st on a actuated 6psi the mix went down a lot faster but my temps where colder. In a hour and a half of full throttle I went down quarter of a tank. But in reality I'm not going to drive like that normally so it should be far less. My red led switch is to far out of sight but that's an easy fix or moving it or adding another. That's all for bad points. Oh fun is also addictive. S.c and water injection is awesome.

[Kodename47 446]

James, how were your average and peak temps calculated? It's just I will see temperature figures similar to that on my car.....

 

The one observation I have to make is that you're injecting the methanol before the compressors, which is where the heat is generated. Would you not want to cool down the charge after it's been heated? Like This......

 

 

Also how will the mixture affect the internals of the charger (rotors and laminova core)?

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

I ran the car days before and got average temps by what I saw with normal driving prior meth install. The peaks where full throttle numbers. Normal driving.

The average temps with meth install where full throttle and completely trying to raise temps. Smashing it.Peaks like wise.

So average is what I saw the most. Peak was most a saw that day.

As you can see the kit works very well. As for the nozzle placing we researched in to it and found the guys in America mount it same place and even Bruce who is a euro vet on the stuff said that's the perfect place.

As for effects of intercooler Bruce assured me it won't effect anything just makes the engine better in every way. Within seconds of the meth injecting its already ivaporated to soak out the heat and up the octane whilst steam cleaning the engine.

But honestly if some thing was wrong Steve I would of known about it the way I ran her today on initial testing. I tried my hardest to get my peaks up. They did but droped rapidly back to average low temps. She pulled better than ever with no loss of power. Safer temps more octane cleaner engine and no loss in power due to heat soak. I backed the kit before but after today I'm speechless. Remember its not even mapped yet and loves the standard s.c tune.

I'm so confident I'm willing to do 3-5 consecutive power runs with another s.c car or turbo to see not what the power figures are but who keep consistent first run powers numbers throughout. We all know you loose power the hotter you are. Just a thought but personally I'm happy and have nothing to prove but if people need this as a eye opener I will. Also Steve that nozzle is directly in the metal, expensive if you want to sell your charger. With intake its only plastic and I'm sure sprintex does spares. Even rob admitted to me his temps where similar to mine before mid 50s average and when he floored it he hit 68-69 degrees. I'm sure yours is the same mate, do you have a p3 gaugevor a standalone air gauge?

Steve that pic is of a dark or black car doesn't happen to be yours mate ; ) running meth....

[Kodename47 446]

Well seeing as you want hard data, here's some for you to put peak and average figures into perspective. I've been doing IAT vs Ambient temperature data collection for different reasons. This is a measly 135,000 data points worth of data mind, not just reading off of a display:

I can't see that it works well at all, put some actual data up!

II just can't see how this is best placed, you're cooling the coldest area of the intake. It's the S/C that generates the heat and water is actually a decent heat conductor, once the cooling effect of the spray has reduced it will still heat up by the effect of compression. Plus you run the risk of condensation on the laminova core, taking liquid out of the air charge. Fact, you want to inject the mixture post blower to have the biggest impact.

I'd certainly be keeping an eye on the oil in the S/C, you run the risk of contamination too.

IMO, this should have been a no expense spared install, you can always plug holes.

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Hard data to follow but im obviously running colder so = better in every way. How will it contaminate the charger oil its a sealed unit and the other side of the screw's so not a chance ; ) my placement of nozzle is exactly the same as your pic Steve only its after the throttle body Lol no difference what so ever. End of the day mate I took a risk and I'm reaping the benefits. Go out for a drive and see if you can get temps even 15degrees close to mine. Mark is tuning my car again and we will see then. I know you are trying to fault what I've done mate and I welcome all views but its futile as how can you. Ok a lost 10 ltrs of boot space and I got to refill my tank but that's nothing for the results I get and could get. The charger and engine is not under anymore strain than normal as it still runs normal mapped parameters. If anything it runs better as its colder and the car gives me full power all the time even on track lap after lap. : )

Yes it's done off a gauge but with 15-25 degree lower temp how can you argue with that. Saver more efficient motor. With the heats generated within the charger and engine all liquids are evaporated immediately. Water is natural to the engine as rain water particles and damp air flow in as per normal day to day driving, the meth is just acting like extra higher grade fuel for a higher octane so both natural to engines.

The big questions you want to ask is why does top world drag racers, time attack cars top drift teams run the system? Yes I'm not running even 20% of some of their out puts but why is our engine any different? Works for them works for me. Top tuners know what this stuff does and the benefits. Ask them.

[Lauren 2259]

Steve isn't trying to fault what you've done, he's merely being objective and he is right that injecting the water/methanol would be more effective after the supercharger as that is where the heat is generated. After all the intake temperature at the point it enters the engine is where you want to cool it, not before the compressor when the air intake temperature is at it's lowest.

 

How is it futile to make a very good point as Steve has. Also how do you know that your engine runs colder and gives you full power lap after lap on track when you haven't even been to a track yet?

 

I think it's ridiculous talk like this that totally undermines you credibility wise.   

[rob275 1817]

Looking at the picture last night, condensation on the core also sprung to mind for me also where it is placed. To cool air only for it to be drastically heated up again can cause drastic issues. Obviously these aren't going to surface straight away and it's something you have chosen to do and have entrusted the Devil's Own guys to do their job. 

 

So you're getting some lower temperatures, but it's silly to say your car is more consistent without first having it on the Dyno really and getting some real logs and figures. Nobody is going to take your word on it. I think Steve could be right, you're pretty much the test mule for this, consider plugging the hole and trying injection after the charger, the results could be ten-fold better as rightly so, the charge is where the temps are built up. Would you blow on your soup before you put it in the microwave or after?

 

It may only be water you are spraying on to the air, and yes Hydrogen obviously exists within Air but generally not without humidity, this is where your condensation would come from, if at all. At the end of the day Steve isn't bashing on what you've done, I think he's genuinely interested in where this is going. What he doesn't want is for you to 

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Its not the right place. Trust me. Pre charger is better. What more do you want where never I mount my nozzle whether it be under my wheel arch I've almost halved our air inlet temps decreased my oil temps by over 5 degrees. It works where it is ; ) where its mounted now the ECU reads the colder temps fine as you can see. Omg really its like leading the blind. I see the temps I feel it. I probably ran the car harder than I've ever done. Would be no different to track. Jeez I will just enjoy it and leave you guys to your own views. As for my credibility ask the queen ; )

[GT86Jay 202]

Its not the right place. Trust me. Pre charger is better. What more do you want where never I mount my nozzle whether it be under my wheel arch I've almost halved our air inlet temps decreased my oil temps by over 5 degrees. It works where it is ; ) where its mounted now the ECU reads the colder temps fine as you can see. Omg really its like leading the blind. I see the temps I feel it. I probably ran the car harder than I've ever done. Would be no different to track. Jeez I will just enjoy it and leave you guys to your own views. As for my credibility ask the queen ; )

Pre charger is better because that's what you've got.

[keelerad 256]

James don't cut off your nose to spite your face, have a look and consider if its possible to inject post the charger, its the best place to do it.

Would you mount an intercooler before a turbo/supercharger ?

Alec

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Pre charger is better because that's what you've got.

Yes and hundreds of other s.c jay. Yourcsayimg the authorityon this subject in the u.k is wrong. Very funny Lol like saying mark or Adrian don't know where an engine is.

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

The nozzle is fitted pre charger to help cool the charger to lower heat that is conducted to the Laminova and engine (as I found out how much everything was cooler to touch), by keeping the charger cooler and the air coming out it stops the Laminova from heating up so much, which being filled with water is harder to cool back down once the water is hot.

Also because the IAT sensor is mounted right on the start of the inlet and the design of the charger set up realistically the there isn't room to mount the nozzle after the charger but before the IAT and to get a good to perfect distribution the option would be direct port but then the ECU wont see the cooler temps without moving it, but you would still want to inject pre charger for the above gains which have already been seen on the reduced temps with more to come with fine tuning and that set up is really overkill for this sort of power/set up and use.

This set up is used the world over on so many cars and our cars as we have seen on the other cars in the states and their tuners.

Keelerad how's de nose. ; )

[griffinnn 11]

I was quite enjoying reading the viewpoints and discussions, how come the thread got closed?

 

I know very little about how cars work but am learning and discussions like that one are really helpful I find. The meth injection before/after the SC i found pretty interesting...

 

I thought the idea was to cool the air before it goes into the engine so that it combusts better? So wouldn't that rule out injecting the meth after the SC?

 

I watched this video which i found to be quite good...

 

 

Can we not keep this discussion open but maybe change the tone a wee bit to a more of a constructive discussion with rationale? Was making some very interesting reading!

[rob275 1817]

It will be re-opened at the end of the month, James knows why it was closed as I spoke to him. I'm happy to re-open it if people are going to discuss Meth injection in a calm manner. I'm not going to re-open it for another argument to start, i've just asked James to get some logs and actual data rather than claiming it's the best thing ever without any real data to back it up. Because in it;s current standing it seems to rattle some cages.

 

EDIT: As griffin wanted to continue the discussion I am happy for a discussion to continue but James, do yourself a favour and get some data before claiming things and take criticism a little less personal

[rob275 1817]

Injecting the meth after the S/C would still be before the engine, looking online there are both arguments for/against this. Most notably is the distribution of the spray even at that point?

 

So there seems to be no right or wrong..

 

Before the S/C: Higher temperatures, but potentially more even spread of the spray resulting in a possibility of more consistent results. However Cons to this could be unknown wear to the Charger & laminova

 

After the S/C: Lower temperatures, harder to monitor and perhaps not as evenly spread. Pro's no potential damage to the charger & laminova. Con's may need to re-place AIT sensor?

[griffinnn 11]

Aye, let's keep this discussion rational chaps/chapettes! 

 

Right ok, understood about after the SC is still before the engine. That's starting to make more sense to me now. So you're saying that once the air has gone through the charger then it will be hotter than when it went in? (the microwave example) That being the case then this would be a good argument for having it after the SC.

 

So it would seem that it would be good to know the air flow temps before the SC and after (no meths) to see what bearing the charger has on temperature. And then to inject meth before and after to see which culminates in the coolest air temp going to engine? 

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

These are just a small selection of pics that Devilsown have done over that last few years, all these cars are running 550-700bhp (making mine and most GT86 set ups seem small fry) and none have had problems and made some great results from 25-30whp with no map adjustments. Obviously that's big power outputs and I'm not saying I have the say from injection alone.

As for other set ups why! Its over kill. I get results so do the above on a simple and easy set up. And from Steve's pic the is no difference to mine. Its just after the throttle body and I'm before. My spray does the exact thing. Moving sensors and messing with other stuff of my abbey s.c set up is a no no. I just wanted to complement it not change it. As for damage to the laminova no one mentioned how you think this will happen. All liquid turns to air form instantly so it flows right through like it wasn't there

Griffin nice video and explains it all. Even state fitted to the intake system. Just like I have and 95% of all other users. All I'm saying is devils own don't pay me to rate them like abbey doesn't but I'd literally have it out with anyone that bad months their work as you all know. I'm talking from my real world real time experience. But as I stated my initial post was a first drive review not a I told you so! I even stated abbey would have the car so . but you still asked for numbers? Instead on jumping on it you should wait if you read it properly. I'm not stubborn I'm passionate and I'm only Willi g to take cons with pros! Simple. Its all be negative from other members. What happened to well done James for having the balls to do it or wow those temps look great then say why not put the nozzle here or have you thought of this? All I can say really. Its obvious people are very interested as you can see the benefits, especially If you track the car a lot or hard road. Personally I want it in as a fancy the cooler temps all the time.

[griffinnn 11]

Oh yea, right enough. In the pic knightryder (Kodename?) has posted the only difference is that its being injected after the throttlebody and not after the SC.

 

Having thought a little bit more about it, surely once the air has been through the compressor it is how you would expect, compressed! Nice and thick and dense. If you were to insert the injector after the SC you may run the risk of leaking some of compressed air out? Or there is the general issue of do u really want to be making a hole in the pipe which has all the pressure?

 

Chosenman - Indeed the pictures you have shown seem to indicate that they consistently seem to put the injector before the throttlebody so there must be a reason? Ask the guys at devil's own and see what they say?

 

I'm quite proud of my boost/pressure leak theory so i'm hoping its that, but i'm sure it wont be

[rob275 1817]

Not saying it would happen James. I'm listing potential pros and cons of injecting from different locations. but from looking online. There are instances of meth removing the coating off of the internals of the charger. That said, it's not coated anyway. I'm sure mark or Steve can confirm that, I havent seen inside so who knows some of it may be.

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Making a hole on the pressure side is no issue as it's threaded and nice and tight, that's how all turbo applications are done, but I'm not turbo'd

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Making a hole on the pressure side is no issue as it's threaded and nice and tight, that's how all turbo applications are done, but I'm not turbo'd

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Devils, Snow, Aquamist etc with various tuners have done tests and found that there is no sign of any extra wear on the coatings until mixtures of over 70% meth.

This coating is designed to wear and will gradually deteriorate over time with or with out methanol injection.

I run 50 methanol 50 water. Best result combi

[rob275 1817]

it all depends what it's coated with surely and how, there is many factors  

 

Obviously the wear could be minimal, to some people that con is more of a con to some than to others. For me, the whole install is a massive con because I simply can't be arsed to top it up and I don't particularly see my temperatures as an issue. If i was experiencing detonation then obviously it would have to be looked at or some form of better cooling solution. 

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Got this off the site. Can I Spray Water Methanol Injection Through My Eaton Supercharger?

Every week and almost daily were asked this or similar questions by customers. It's a reasonable and understandable concern for those who are running an Eaton supercharger or any of the other positive displacement superchargers such as the Kenne Bell, Magnacharger, Whipple, Edelbrock etc. as the water methanol injection will be sprayed directly into the inlet of the supercharger and through its rotors. Read below as we answer the many questions asked regarding spraying water methanol injection through positive displacement superchargers.

Is it safe to spray water methanol injection through my supercharger?

Yes, its safe to spray water methanol injection through your supercharger. We have set up hundreds of systems for customers over the years who are doing just this. Furthermore, you can find countless others on the internet who are doing the same with competitors systems.

Spraying through the supercharger is extremely effective way of cooling off the supercharger and its rotors and housing. So much that if you are familiar with how hot your supercharger is after shutting of the car just after normal driving. If you ever get the opportunity to watch your car dynoed in person. After they finish a pull. Walk over and cautiously place your hand on the supercharger. It will feel warm to the touch and sometimes almost cool. Where as without the water methanol injection, you wouldn't be able to touch it!

I have found this to be a quick and easy way to tell if the water methanol injection has fired off during a run on the dyno before waiting for the data to display on the dyno's computer showing air temps. Try it out for yourself and you'll be surprised how cool your supercharger feels with water methanol injection.

Will it hurt the bearings on my supercharger?

No, the water methanol injection will not hurt your bearings. We have customers who have been running water methanol injection through their positive displacement superchargers, on daily drivers, for years without any issues.

While we can not see inside the supercharger while the methanol is spraying. We can tell from looking at other information and signs. It appears the majority or entirety of the water methanol injection is flashing off instantly once it comes in contact with the hot rotor pack and housing. The water methanol injection is short lived and evaporates to quickly to make its way back and into the bearings.

Will it pit or corrode my supercharger?

No, spraying water methanol injection will not pit or corrode your supercharger. While it's a reasonable and understandable question since the supercharger rotors and housing are made of aluminum. The methanol is too shorted lived and evaporates immediately before it is allowed time to effect the aluminum surfaces. Unlike if you store methanol in a aluminum container where over a period of days and weeks it will eventually corrode and pit the aluminum.

Will it effect the coating on my supercharger?

Yes when 70% Methanol is used, It has not proven detrimental or effected the performance of the supercharger. This coating is designed to wear and will eventually deteriorate over time regardless if water methanol injection is used.

[griffinnn 11]

Making a hole on the pressure side is no issue as it's threaded and nice and tight, that's how all turbo applications are done, but I'm not turbo'd

 

Gutted lol. I'm now very keen to find out why the injectors are placed before the SC!