BREAK SQUEAK

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Last night whilst driving around London visiting my folks I started to hear my breaks squeak. I was driving with my windows down through normal West London roads, it seems with the parked cars and tight buildings the sounds from my car was amplified. The squeak comes in at the initial point of breaking and the harder I press the break pedal the squeak disappears. It is a faint sound but a squeak none the less. My 86 has only got 8.5k on the clock and no break pads go in that space of time and I only give it the beans rarely on my Favourite local B roads! "Which is not a lot might I add, still learning on how to drive fast.. I so need help, heel and toe, someone needs to show me please" lol. Also my break bite through the pedal is still very strong and high up which should indicate I have ample break pads left.What could this be?Anyone else noticed the their car do the same?Technical wizards Help?!Thanks guys.

[spanytom 10]

Can't say I have any technical info, but mine have started doing this since about 4,000 miles (at which point the car was just under a year old). I have done a track day in it, but there is still plenty of meat on the pads. I find that if I do a hard stop the brakes will be fine for the rest of the journey, but next time I'm out the squeak will be back... Will mention it at my first service this weekend.

[Keethos 842]

Yeah, there's nothing really to worry about besides your sanity and your ears, I've got about 15k miles on the clock and mine has been doing it quite a lot and pretty much from the beginning, even after a couple of track days which does tend to quieten them down for a day or two. Though I do find hard stops don't always work for me but I find that whenever the car has been washed (note not very often :32 (28) they tend to stay quite for a few days too. Some people expect this as this is a sports car, some people can't stand it and get the dealers to have a look with some success but often told that there's nothing they can do.As for Heel and Toe technique, it's a bit weird, I've always known how to do it but I was never able to do it properly, I started to try braking with my big toe and accelerate a bit with my little toe and that worked pretty well in my Clio 200....but that was because the 2 pedals were of similar height and that I could do it at low speeds and this got me used to blipping the revs. In the GT86 however, since the pedals are more offset height wise, this technique of using your big and little toe doesn't work very well, so I had to start doing the proper heel and toe but what I found was that it's a lot easier to do when you're actually on the brakes hard, this levels your foot out more with the loud pedal, at which point you can just jab it with your heel quickly to blip the accelerator. All this kinda just fell together and I could suddenly do it to a certain degree. Now I tend to heel toe whenever I'm slowing down from high speeds and even blip the accelerator when I'm just changing down at slow speeds.I'm actually a lil chuffed now about my heel and toe because during my very first ever trackday, I gave some random fella a ride along and it was his first time in a GT86 (though a veteran track goer as he had his own trailer and caterham) and he actually asked me if the car auto rev matches :32 (18):I had to tell him that it was all me :32 (1):needless to say he was impressed with it being my first trackday

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Can't say I have any technical info, but mine have started doing this since about 4,000 miles (at which point the car was just under a year old). I have done a track day in it, but there is still plenty of meat on the pads. I find that if I do a hard stop the brakes will be fine for the rest of the journey, but next time I'm out the squeak will be back... Will mention it at my first service this weekend.

Thanks mate! I am hoping this is a normal thing with the squeak! So are you saying the brakes need a warm up then they stop squeaking till they are cold again?

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Can't say I have any technical info, but mine have started doing this since about 4,000 miles (at which point the car was just under a year old). I have done a track day in it, but there is still plenty of meat on the pads. I find that if I do a hard stop the brakes will be fine for the rest of the journey, but next time I'm out the squeak will be back... Will mention it at my first service this weekend.

Thanks mate! I am hoping this is a normal thing with the squeak! So are you saying the brakes need a warm up then they stop squeaking till they are cold again?

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Can't say I have any technical info, but mine have started doing this since about 4,000 miles (at which point the car was just under a year old). I have done a track day in it, but there is still plenty of meat on the pads. I find that if I do a hard stop the brakes will be fine for the rest of the journey, but next time I'm out the squeak will be back... Will mention it at my first service this weekend.

Thanks mate! I am hoping this is a normal thing with the squeak! So are you saying the brakes need a warm up then they stop squeaking till they are cold again?

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Thanks guys!! So it sounds like the squeak is a normal thing!! Also is like they need to warmed up or something maybe we need to look at after markets pads! Keethos, you can show me how to heel and toe on a meet dude!

[Keethos 842]

LOL, can do mate no problem at all....though I still class myself as a noob, if you want learn off someone, you want one of the more experienced track day people here such as Lauren, LFA etc. There might actually be a mini meet coming up in a couple of weeks on a Saturday down at Abbey Motorsport in Oxted, Surrey! I'll stick up a mini meet thread once I have some confirmation!

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Mate Surrey is a good call for me! As long as it is before the 15th!

[spanytom 10]

Can't say I have any technical info, but mine have started doing this since about 4,000 miles (at which point the car was just under a year old). I have done a track day in it, but there is still plenty of meat on the pads. I find that if I do a hard stop the brakes will be fine for the rest of the journey, but next time I'm out the squeak will be back... Will mention it at my first service this weekend.

Sounds like it's fairly common then - doesn't concern me as braking performance is unaffected. Don't know if the hard stop acts as a warm up or just scrubbing residue of the pads/ discs, but seems to do the trick.

[GT86-Ian 351]

LOL, can do mate no problem at all....though I still class myself as a noob, if you want learn off someone, you want one of the more experienced track day people here such as Lauren, LFA etc. There might actually be a mini meet coming up in a couple of weeks on a Saturday down at Abbey Motorsport in Oxted, Surrey! I'll stick up a mini meet thread once I have some confirmation!

Any Turbos going ??

[LFA 68]

Only ran stock pads and rotors for a short time, including some track action; but never had a squeak from them. Used ferrodo DS uno / DS 1.11 for a while ( pretty hardcore track pads ) on AP rotors ; they squealed more than you can imagine. Currently running ds2500s which squeak a bit under light pressure but are fine when stamped on. Lots of variables with pads but if they squeal on stock set-up I'd try some harder brake applications fairly often which ought to keep things acceptable.

[Keethos 842]

LOL, can do mate no problem at all....though I still class myself as a noob, if you want learn off someone, you want one of the more experienced track day people here such as Lauren, LFA etc. There might actually be a mini meet coming up in a couple of weeks on a Saturday down at Abbey Motorsport in Oxted, Surrey! I'll stick up a mini meet thread once I have some confirmation!

Hopefully we can get Pitman down as I know he's keen for a nice lil comparison, but again, still waiting to see when we're good to pop down with Mark.

[Lauren 2259]

The brake pads squeak. Nothing you can do about it realistically. It's the pad material.In terms of heel and toeing, here is an article I wrote some ten years ago:When driving on-track and equally on the road there are always tips and tricks you can learn. Often mentioned but not always well understood is that of heel and toeing. Before I explain what it is I am going to mention the benefits and the reasons behind it. This technique is aimed at kemoothest possible transition from braking before the corner onto corner entry. It’s main aim is to help maintain the balance of the car whilst simultaneously allowing maximum braking.What heel and toeing is, is essentially a ‘blip’ of the throttle to match engine revs whilst changing down a gear and braking. All at the same time of course! Sounds difficult, but with a bit of practice, not only do you get round corners more quickly, but you are also much kinder to your car’s gearbox, clutch and engine.Probably the easiest way to explain it is to take you through a virtual corner. So here I am approaching Redgate at Donington. I’m in 4th gear at around 105mph or so. To take the corner I need to reduce my speed to 60mph and be in 3rd gear. I am still accelerating as I am approaching the corner. At the braking point I put the brakes on very hard to slow down in as short a time as possible. Now, timing is key to doing this well. As my speed drops just below 75mph I push the clutch down and change into 3rd. before I let the clutch up, I roll my right foot (which is still on the brake) and turn it slightly anti-clockwise to ‘blip’ the throttle. This sends the engine revs up and as I let the clutch out the engine speed matches the road speed in that gear. Next I turn-in to the corner and get back on the power easing the throttle on to balance the car for the exit of the corner. Two main advantages here; firstly the car hasn’t been unbalanced by me changing gear and braking. Secondly the net result is that I’m on the power earlier and everything is that much smoother.So what happens if I don’t heel and toe? Well I enter the braking zone, brake hard, then as the speed drops I change down and as I let the clutch up the engine revs suddenly soar, which in turn unbalances the car as the rear goes light and I have to deal with all this before I turn into the corner! A year ago at Bentwaters I experimented with not heel and toeing at a tight left hand corner. It was a second gear corner and I found that if I didn’t heel and toe I actually locked the rear wheels as the clutch came up! So in effect when you heel and toe you are pressing the brake and accelerator at the same time. This is the trickiest bit by far, how to maintain consistent even braking and in the middle of it blip the throttle? As I described earlier, I like to roll the outside of my right foot onto the throttle. This is certainly the way to do it with the most feel. But if you have standard pedals then you may find they are too far apart to do this easily. I have a Sparco pedal set in my car for good reason and that is to put the accelerator and brake closer together so that I can roll my (narrow) feet more easily. If I’m driving a friend’s car I use the ‘other’ way. Literally use the ball of your feet to press the brake and kick the accelerator with your heel. It’s less easy to keep a constant pressure on the brake doing it this way, but it gives the same results as rolling your foot. It may be less exact but it works just as well.One of the best things about heel and toeing is that you can practice it every time you drive your car on the road. Please remember though that the first few times you try it make sure no-one is in front of you. Try it at slow speeds on a quiet road. Cruise along in 4th then try the technique going into 3rd. Better still simply sit in your car and look at your right foot on the brake pedal see how you can push the brake and hit the throttle as you do it. Make sure that your foot is in no danger of slipping off the brake. I was practising this a few years ago and tried it approaching a roundabout. I wasn’t going overly fast but my foot slipped right off the brake and I had to get on the brakes pretty quick to stop in time! So be careful!Lastly, in order to help heel and toeing, think about getting a pedal set. You can buy a funky Sparco Aluminium set for under £20. Make sure it is a ‘bolt on’ set and not one that clamps over the existing pedals. What you need to do is to take the rubbers off the brake and clutch and drill through the remaining metal pedal. Then it’s a matter of bolting the pedal cover to the pedal. Make sure that the brake pedal cover is absolutely secure. You don’t want this to come loose! By law there is supposed to be 50mm between the brake and accelerator. It’s very much up to you if you keep to this. You’re unlikely to get prosecuted if they are closer than this distance and you would be pretty unlucky to fail an MOT because of it. To heel and toe well and to drive well, you need to have the maximum feel through the pedals as possible. A lot of people drive in trainers and while this may be comfortable, because of the thickness of the sole it literally robs you of feel and feedback through the pedals. Okay the clutch isn’t all that important but the accelerator and brake certainly are. Try to wear as thin soled shoes as possible. Best is of course racing boots as they are designed solely for this purpose.. They do cost, but in my opinion they are worth it. Expect to pay around £30 or so for ‘clubman style boots’. FIA approved nomex boots start around £60 plus.Hope this helps! (copyrighted 2003).http://www.mr2.net/trackdayqueen/heelandtoe.htm

[Riceburner 284]

Brake pads are very hard compound for obvious reasons and all 3 of my GTS have squealed usually when slow moving in traffic. I have sent numerous product reports to technical but I doubt any permanent fix will be done.They do last well as Lauren will testify,even may outlast the discs.Several track days and still going strong.

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Only ran stock pads and rotors for a short time, including some track action; but never had a squeak from them. Used ferrodo DS uno / DS 1.11 for a while ( pretty hardcore track pads ) on AP rotors ; they squealed more than you can imagine. Currently running ds2500s which squeak a bit under light pressure but are fine when stamped on. Lots of variables with pads but if they squeal on stock set-up I'd try some harder brake applications fairly often which ought to keep things acceptable.

Thanks LFA! Sounds good to me.. But if I am honest the squeak is not that bad. I took the car out today on a Military driver training area ermm "after hours" and gave the car a work out! I can not drift for s$^t" I need help! With that it seems after the brakes getting some heat into them the noise stopped! I am guessing they just like to be worked then they shut up! As for rotors, that is not even close for me, I am by far a serious wheel man.. Still in training as this is my 1st performance car.. The rest have been comfortable eco cruisers!But what I am looking at is the Litchfield Miltek Exhaust and filter kit! I bit more power and sound. Know anything as you sound like you know your stuff mate!

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

The brake pads squeak. Nothing you can do about it realistically. It's the pad material.In terms of heel and toeing, here is an article I wrote some ten years ago:When driving on-track and equally on the road there are always tips and tricks you can learn. Often mentioned but not always well understood is that of heel and toeing. Before I explain what it is I am going to mention the benefits and the reasons behind it. This technique is aimed at kemoothest possible transition from braking before the corner onto corner entry. It’s main aim is to help maintain the balance of the car whilst simultaneously allowing maximum braking.What heel and toeing is, is essentially a ‘blip’ of the throttle to match engine revs whilst changing down a gear and braking. All at the same time of course! Sounds difficult, but with a bit of practice, not only do you get round corners more quickly, but you are also much kinder to your car’s gearbox, clutch and engine.Probably the easiest way to explain it is to take you through a virtual corner. So here I am approaching Redgate at Donington. I’m in 4th gear at around 105mph or so. To take the corner I need to reduce my speed to 60mph and be in 3rd gear. I am still accelerating as I am approaching the corner. At the braking point I put the brakes on very hard to slow down in as short a time as possible. Now, timing is key to doing this well. As my speed drops just below 75mph I push the clutch down and change into 3rd. before I let the clutch up, I roll my right foot (which is still on the brake) and turn it slightly anti-clockwise to ‘blip’ the throttle. This sends the engine revs up and as I let the clutch out the engine speed matches the road speed in that gear. Next I turn-in to the corner and get back on the power easing the throttle on to balance the car for the exit of the corner. Two main advantages here; firstly the car hasn’t been unbalanced by me changing gear and braking. Secondly the net result is that I’m on the power earlier and everything is that much smoother.So what happens if I don’t heel and toe? Well I enter the braking zone, brake hard, then as the speed drops I change down and as I let the clutch up the engine revs suddenly soar, which in turn unbalances the car as the rear goes light and I have to deal with all this before I turn into the corner! A year ago at Bentwaters I experimented with not heel and toeing at a tight left hand corner. It was a second gear corner and I found that if I didn’t heel and toe I actually locked the rear wheels as the clutch came up! So in effect when you heel and toe you are pressing the brake and accelerator at the same time. This is the trickiest bit by far, how to maintain consistent even braking and in the middle of it blip the throttle? As I described earlier, I like to roll the outside of my right foot onto the throttle. This is certainly the way to do it with the most feel. But if you have standard pedals then you may find they are too far apart to do this easily. I have a Sparco pedal set in my car for good reason and that is to put the accelerator and brake closer together so that I can roll my (narrow) feet more easily. If I’m driving a friend’s car I use the ‘other’ way. Literally use the ball of your feet to press the brake and kick the accelerator with your heel. It’s less easy to keep a constant pressure on the brake doing it this way, but it gives the same results as rolling your foot. It may be less exact but it works just as well.One of the best things about heel and toeing is that you can practice it every time you drive your car on the road. Please remember though that the first few times you try it make sure no-one is in front of you. Try it at slow speeds on a quiet road. Cruise along in 4th then try the technique going into 3rd. Better still simply sit in your car and look at your right foot on the brake pedal see how you can push the brake and hit the throttle as you do it. Make sure that your foot is in no danger of slipping off the brake. I was practising this a few years ago and tried it approaching a roundabout. I wasn’t going overly fast but my foot slipped right off the brake and I had to get on the brakes pretty quick to stop in time! So be careful!Lastly, in order to help heel and toeing, think about getting a pedal set. You can buy a funky Sparco Aluminium set for under £20. Make sure it is a ‘bolt on’ set and not one that clamps over the existing pedals. What you need to do is to take the rubbers off the brake and clutch and drill through the remaining metal pedal. Then it’s a matter of bolting the pedal cover to the pedal. Make sure that the brake pedal cover is absolutely secure. You don’t want this to come loose! By law there is supposed to be 50mm between the brake and accelerator. It’s very much up to you if you keep to this. You’re unlikely to get prosecuted if they are closer than this distance and you would be pretty unlucky to fail an MOT because of it. To heel and toe well and to drive well, you need to have the maximum feel through the pedals as possible. A lot of people drive in trainers and while this may be comfortable, because of the thickness of the sole it literally robs you of feel and feedback through the pedals. Okay the clutch isn’t all that important but the accelerator and brake certainly are. Try to wear as thin soled shoes as possible. Best is of course racing boots as they are designed solely for this purpose.. They do cost, but in my opinion they are worth it. Expect to pay around £30 or so for ‘clubman style boots’. FIA approved nomex boots start around £60 plus.Hope this helps! (copyrighted 2003).http://www.mr2.net/trackdayqueen/heelandtoe.htm

Lauren, are you a pro? I so need help! I would love to be able to have the skill to remotely exploit my cars chassis.. I have seen all the drifts on youtube but I cannot seem to do it. Burn outs no dramas lol As for heel and toe, got a set of black pumps.. really thin soles. No where near good enough for racing slippers, I would look like I have the gear but no idea. I certainly will look at the new pedals. Thinking about it now, I am saying to myself how the hell do I reach the gas pedal? ! Not only is it slightly lower on my 86 than my break pedal but it is quite far apart. So I tried it in my Lexus.. the funny thing is that the pedal set up is more accommodating. The pedals are on level and closer which equates to the blip! Happy with that but I think you will need to talk me through it on a dry run ie not moving till I get the process right in my head! On a meet maybe.Thanks againJames

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Brake pads are very hard compound for obvious reasons and all 3 of my GTS have squealed usually when slow moving in traffic. I have sent numerous product reports to technical but I doubt any permanent fix will be done.They do last well as Lauren will testify,even may outlast the discs.Several track days and still going strong.

Thanks mate!

[Lauren 2259]

James, I wouldn't say I was a pro. I did race professionally in 2004, though that was a long time ago! I have also done trackdays amongst other things for 12 years now. On the GT86, James, I don't think you need to change the pedals, they are fine. Yes the brake pedal is a little high I agree, though it's not so much of an issue when you are braking hard.It's something you have to practice really and every car is a bit different. It is certainly possible to heel and toe and do it well on the GT, but you may neeed to tweek how you have your foot. I favour the ball of my foot on the brake pedal and blip the accelerator pedal with the side of my foot.If you want some decent footwear, Puma Speedcats are great, I've used them for 12 years now and wear them everyday for driving to work. About £65 I think, easy to find, just google for them.If you're at a meet I'd be happy to show you how. Not sure where you are, but looks like I'll be down to London/Kent in a couple of weeks. Reckon it takes about three months to get up to scratch with heel and toeing.

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Well quite frankly that makes you a pro! lol I Live in Wiltshire but I travel to London now and again. Well if it is a meet in a couple of weeks I will be there hopefully before the 16th as that is my holiday time. Funny thing whilst on the a303 today ermm practising my heel and toe whilst slowing for traffic another white GT 86 Blew past me must of been someone on here, certainly knew how to keep the revs up as he just took off! No keeping up with him. Must of been Modded plus I hate going over 90mph! Already go 3 points I would hate 6. Well I will keep trying till you give me the instruction I need Lauren! Thanks again.

[Lauren 2259]

Yeah, practice and keep at it. It does take a while to get the hang of it. As I said, probably three months at it to get proficient enough. The issue is of course if you do it whilst going into a corner and slip off the brake then you could have an accident so practice in a straight line to begin with without traffic anywhere near you. Very happy to show you if you pop over for a meet. :+:

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Certainly will do! Can I ask what does you injen induction do for the car? Can it be fitted without a remap? can it be taken off easy and the stock unit put back on?

[Lauren 2259]

Yes it can be fitted without the remap. Mine isn't remapped after all. I had it fitted by my dealer (RRG Macc) before I picked it up. Yes, it bolts on and off, no problem. Very easy to swop it back to stock. The induction kit allows a bit more induction noise. Apparently it gives power gains too. Hard to say on that one really.Gets rid of the sound generator too.

[CHOSENMAN007 81]

Nice what is a sound generator? What model should I go for?

[Keethos 842]

The sound generator is a pipe that leads from the existing air intake and leads into the foot well of the drivers side I believe, it generates a lot of noise to make the car sound awesome and loud on the inside of the car but not from the outside of the car, most modern cars now days to it to reduce noise pollution and what not. Changing the air intake will typically mean loosing this sound generator.TRD actually make little attachments that can actually change the sound of this noise slightly, one reduces it, one makes it louder and another even louder I think: