TSS - Croft - 2nd September

[Jamie_GRMN 177]

Just booked the Darlington East (Morton Park) Premier Inn for this:

https://www.premierinn.com/gb/en/hotels/england/county-durham/darlington/darlington-east-morton-park.html?INNID=DARBRE&ARRdd=01&ARRmm=09&ARRyyyy=2018&NIGHTS=1&ROOMS=1&ADULT1=2&CHILD1=0&COT1=0&INTTYP1=DB&SID=4&ISH=true&BRAND=PI

Currently 57quid on the saver rate...

[Mike 458]

Booked as well

[surrey86 352]

Me too

[GraemeI 41]

Another quick 'best lap, worst lap'  

My best lap was 5 seconds (!!!!!!) off Tomas, but as you can see in the video, I am quite often at grip limit or slightly beyond.  I don't like to blame the equipment, as I am sure the user has much to learn, but struggling to work out where that much time bled away.  Any views and insights welcomed

 

My worst (technically 2nd worst, but worst I managed to get on video!) lap speaks for itself really.  This was run 4, and run 5 I went off exactly at the same place, only a little more spectacularly!  Run 6 was going way better, then I somehow lost the braking point into the last hairpin and went touring with the cones! Even then, I think it would only maybe have been 0.5 to 1s faster.

 

 

 

[Lauren 2259]

I would say braking too early for Clervaux and not using all the kerb on the exit. Not getting the drive down the back straight on the run to Tower. You need to get up to 5th gear here. Also a poor exit from Tower and not going flat through the Esses and using all the kerb and a bit more on the exit is costing you loads of time. You should be around 110mph with only a slight lift for Barcroft. 

[GraemeI 41]

Thanks @Lauren, great feedback as always

I was watching Kevin’s video on Croft, and my speeds were very similar to his, higher in some, lower in a couple, and yet my times were not there.

Here were my thoughts & questions

What speed should I be arriving at Tower?  I couldn’t get through there any quicker as I just had no extra grip - front sliding on entry and rear the whole way through if I tried any more accelerator...  I tried about 5 different approaches through there on my different runs - mostly intentionally!!

I was almost flat through the Esses, which I did manage on at least one run, and got to Barcroft around that speed.  You can see in second video what happened when I tried to stay flat through Barcroft.   I was doing 107mph at the start of the slide High speed cornering spits out the rear - same as at Anglesey in my later run.

What’s disturbing, is even if I nailed all of that, would it still get me 5 seconds!? 

 

[Jamie_GRMN 177]

Thought I’d post up my fastest lap in the Yaris, seems to go pretty similarly to Graeme’s (fast one, not the spin!!) which is unsurprising considering I was only .02 ahead in the end!!

Fortunately it was enough to beat Paul in the other GRMN there, sorry for the language at the end but was rather pleased (knocked a second off my previous fastest lap)!

The beeps in it are very annoying too but that’s the dashcam thinking I’ve had an accident 

 

[Lauren 2259]

3 hours ago, GraemeI said:

Thanks @Lauren, great feedback as always

I was watching Kevin’s video on Croft, and my speeds were very similar to his, higher in some, lower in a couple, and yet my times were not there.

Here were my thoughts & questions

What speed should I be arriving at Tower?  I couldn’t get through there any quicker as I just had no extra grip - front sliding on entry and rear the whole way through if I tried any more accelerator...  I tried about 5 different approaches through there on my different runs - mostly intentionally!!

I was almost flat through the Esses, which I did manage on at least one run, and got to Barcroft around that speed.  You can see in second video what happened when I tried to stay flat through Barcroft.   I was doing 107mph at the start of the slide High speed cornering spits out the rear - same as at Anglesey in my later run.

What’s disturbing, is even if I nailed all of that, would it still get me 5 seconds!? 

 

I'm trying to remember the approach speed to Tower, I get into 5th, somewhere around 111-115mph. A poor exit from there will cost you all the way to Barcroft. It is very hard to get right but you must hit the apex and not go deep. You need to run far wider at the Esses onto the tarmac/concrete on the exit by as much as you can which gives a better line through Barcroft which would enable you to do it at 110mph or so. You can't really go flat through Barcroft, I always lift slightly. I also notice you were slow out of the chicane, should be top of third really, though you can't quite go flat there. I tried it once and spun at 90mph on the exit. But this cost you all the way down the straight and explains your low speed by the time you got to Tower. There is 5 seconds there somewhere, but it's probably a bit everywhere really. 

[GraemeI 41]

Thanks @Jamie_GRMN - interesting comparison indeed, so thanks for the upload!  FWIW - my dash cam does the same damn thing!

First section looks very similar, but it’s quite different after that - at least to my eyes   Your extra grunt definitely gets you up to speed quicker, but you were quite a bit more tentative through the Esses and Barcroft, but more on it through the next bit than I was..  Great run, so well done!

Great feedback, thanks @Lauren.  I understand what you mean now. I knew I had some time out of the chicane, but didn’t think it was that bad after seeing @KevinA video and comparing speed, but clearly there is an effect!  I am probably classified as ‘sad’ when it comes to these things, but love to understand and learn.

Thank you both!

[KevinA 695]

Will put my best lap up later all be it slow at 1.41.19 must ditch the Nankangs lol

[Mike 458]

My quickest of the day: 

 

Did my usual of setting 4 laps within 2 tenths but managed just over half a second off on the final run. The left hander at the start of the complex felt like it could be taken far quicker as the car just gripped, not surprising really as the tyres were pretty sticky after a run! The hairpins were a different story though... 

Think most of my time is lost in the esses and barcroft, even a few mph slower soon adds up. Other suggestions welcome 

Thanks again Kev for the quick check on my rear pads, even if it did mean finding another nail in a tyre 

 

[GraemeI 41]

Love the chilled ‘non’ grip on the steering wheel!!  Good habit to be relaxed

It looks like you’re losing a lot in the first set of corners, and even more than I was through the first chicane - you were right off the throttle there, so I reckon that cost you a second or two up to Tower.

As you already said, through the Esses and Barcroft, you must have dropped a few mph with the lifts there too.  Couldn’t see your speedo in that section, so not sure how much?  I think we could both carry quite a lot more into the complex - as you say, it was very grippy turning left.  The next right-hander, not so much  

 

@KevinA - They need dumping - or warming up maybe   Still a shed load more grip than I had though  Thanks again for taking me out - it was a good learning experience.

[Mike 458]

I found a looser grip helps as it let's the wheel give you feedback as well. I've never got on well with the bit before the chicane due to how bumpy it is. Changing these suspension settings helped as I was under steering a lot going in to the first few corners. On the last run, think it was around 105 on the speedo heading to barcroft, so room for improvement! 

The right hander you say... 

 

[GraemeI 41]

48 minutes ago, Mike said:

I found a looser grip helps as it let's the wheel give you feedback as well.

Definitely - it's one of the things Colin from CAT helped me learn too.  Nowhere near as chilled as you though - a few years driving karts means I tend to hold on a bit tighter to round spinny things in front of me

48 minutes ago, Mike said:

I've never got on well with the bit before the chicane due to how bumpy it is. Changing these suspension settings helped as I was under steering a lot going in to the first few corners.

It is a bit bumpy for sure.  I would be interested to know what settings you ended up with, as I was playing with mine a little, but clearly didn't make it better   Also, having the active setup means I am not 100% sure what it is doing at any point in time.  I think that setup wins some and loses some, but I haven't had enough time with it yet to work out which is which!

48 minutes ago, Mike said:

On the last run, think it was around 105 on the speedo heading to barcroft, so room for improvement! 

Not exactly bad though, is it!?    I think my fastest lap it was 106, but I did that on my practice lap too, so no improvement there - lol   The spinning lap was 110mph on the way in, but we saw how that ended!   My fastest after feathering through there was 109 before braking, so there's a few mph to be had by @Lauren standards!

 

 

[Mike 458]

17 hours ago, GraemeI said:

It is a bit bumpy for sure.  I would be interested to know what settings you ended up with, as I was playing with mine a little, but clearly didn't make it better   Also, having the active setup means I am not 100% sure what it is doing at any point in time.  I think that setup wins some and loses some, but I haven't had enough time with it yet to work out which is which!

On the EDFC, 32 rear, 38 front I think. That's with the standard 6kg/6kg spring rates. Could be tempted to change to 7kg rear or just re-adjust the base values I've got programmed in to the EDFC. Can't go softer on the front otherwise my car won't get out of work  

[GraemeI 41]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

On the EDFC, 32 rear, 38 front I think. That's with the standard 6kg/6kg spring rates. Could be tempted to change to 7kg rear or just re-adjust the base values I've got programmed in to the EDFC. Can't go softer on the front otherwise my car won't get out of work  

Very interesting indeed 

I have the 6kg R / 5kg F setup on mine to help get rid of understeer (which is working well  ).  I have the 6kg front springs too, but haven't tried them tbh, as I get on with this setup as is.

FWIW, I raised my ride height slightly when I had them fitted as I can't be dealing with speed humps, driveways etc etc.  It was lowered 25mm on the Eibach springs I got it with, and I increased it to being just a 15mm drop on stock, which works just fine for me   Guess it depends on if you're attached to the low ride height or not?

The setting I ended up settling on was 48/48 after trying a load of others, but that is with Active EDFC, so who knows what it was doing in the corners!!?  I had it softer on rear in an attempt to stop the rear stepping out, so I tried 40/32, 40/48 and even 64/64 with a more aggressive active map, but the 48/48 was the most settled through most corners.

[Lauren 2259]

16 hours ago, GraemeI said:

The setting I ended up settling on was 48/48 after trying a load of others, but that is with Active EDFC, so who knows what it was doing in the corners!!?  I had it softer on rear in an attempt to stop the rear stepping out, so I tried 40/32, 40/48 and even 64/64 with a more aggressive active map, but the 48/48 was the most settled through most corners.

You need to get a better handle on programming the EDFC. When I go on track I turn off the speed part of the EDFC as it is not needed and start with 40/40 on the settings. My rear dampers have been increased in rate by 20%, and you run the 'Lauren spring rate' I see!

My outer dampers increase by increments of 6 and the inner ones by increments of 4 when the lateral G force increases. Have you actually set it up? Most people seem to use my settings. Can't seem to find my record of the speed settings for some reason. 

 

[Mike 458]

[Lauren 2259]

Thanks, @Mike I knew it was somewhere! Duly saved back to my laptop!

[KevinA 695]

We need to play suspension settings game at a trackday @Lauren

[Mike 458]

	Run 1	Run 2	Run 3	Run 4	Run 5	Run 6
Start	2.53	2.36	2.27	2.35	2.46	2.20
Sector 1	50.18	50.07	50.25	50.30	50.17	49.77
Sector 2	55.81	55.12	55.25	55.05	55.12	55.03
Lap	1:48.52	1:47.55	1:47.77	1:47.70	1:47.75	1:47.00

 

If the above pastes/formats right... pretty consistent I think... just need to be quicker!

[KevinA 695]

Not very tidy but trying to deal with poor grip.

 

 

[GraemeI 41]

14 hours ago, Lauren said:

You need to get a better handle on programming the EDFC. When I go on track I turn off the speed part of the EDFC as it is not needed and start with 40/40 on the settings. My rear dampers have been increased in rate by 20%, and you run the 'Lauren spring rate' I see!

My outer dampers increase by increments of 6 and the inner ones by increments of 4 when the lateral G force increases. Have you actually set it up? Most people seem to use my settings. Can't seem to find my record of the speed settings for some reason. 

 

LOL - you're not kidding @Lauren   I need to get a better handle on a lot of things, including my life, but that's another forum

I have changed some settings, based on what I thought would be a good setting - it's not miles off yours, but quite different rates - my inner is almost 1/2 the outer  

I think the below are what mine look like.

Longitundinal G

 

Lateral G

 

What is the extra column in yours showing the 1's and 0's ?

I think after I solve my brake problem, I will get my geo tweaked again, as I think a little more camber in the rear would have stopped those silly off's.  Once that is done, I will have a chat with Yukiko (and maybe go visit - it's only 45 mins) to see if I have done it right  

Interesting on your increased damper rate on the rear - what effect does that have?  I do run the same spring rates as when I spoke to Adrian and told him what sort of characteristics I was after, he suggested the 5kg front.  I ended up with both, but not tried the 6kg yet.

[GraemeI 41]

10 hours ago, Mike said:

	Run 1	Run 2	Run 3	Run 4	Run 5	Run 6
Start	2.53	2.36	2.27	2.35	2.46	2.20
Sector 1	50.18	50.07	50.25	50.30	50.17	49.77
Sector 2	55.81	55.12	55.25	55.05	55.12	55.03
Lap	1:48.52	1:47.55	1:47.77	1:47.70	1:47.75	1:47.00

 

If the above pastes/formats right... pretty consistent I think... just need to be quicker!

Very consistent - nice!  I wasn't as consistent as I kept trying different setups and lines to try work out the track... And then went off at Barcroft on Runs 4 & 5 :-/

Tomas' times were ridiculous though.  Each two runs were 1/100th of a second apart, and then he got silly!!

[GraemeI 41]

5 hours ago, KevinA said:

Not very tidy but trying to deal with poor grip.

That is very sad with wheels and tyres that wide with almost slicks on them!  

I really do think it's heat for those tyres.  When you took me out, you had just been out, so not much rest in between like the runs, and they definitely came on through the last complex of corners - the grip level went up and the 'squirminess' went down - at least according to my butt feel   Will you be doing a track day somewhere to test the theory?

After being left over 5 seconds behind this time, I am seriously thinking about the trackway just before Snetterton now   Any practice can only help reduce that kind of ridiculous deficit!