Coil Over kits

[Guest]

Hi all,

 

I'm new to the GT 86 and this forum and have introduced myself over ion the newbie section. I am going to get my new GT86 next Monday and fully intend to go mad modifying it. I will start with suspension, wheels tyres and brakes I think?

 

I have a question though, I've found that the Rolls Royce of suspension for these cars is the Ohlins set up, but there are so many others out there..

 

We have the BC and HSD set ups, but then at the other end of the price band we have the Ohlins and KW set ups. I'm looking for opinions please on which set up is the best value. I intend to play on the track from time to time, but will mainly be having fun on some great A and B roads.

 

I tend to modify cars for the enjoyment of developing it rather than the finished item, which is why I would never just go and buy a tuned car.

 

Thanks in anticipation of any replies.

[Lauren 2259]

It really is simply a question of budget. All represent good value to a point but obviously you get what you pay for. 

 

I think the thing to be mindful of is that with some more expensive systems they are utterly brilliant but may need rebuilding sooner than some of the cheaper ones if that makes sense. 

 

The Ohlins are £3K plus fitting which is going to be in the region of £500 or so, so it's a lot of money. If you can afford it go for it I would say. 

 

I just couldn't justify that cost. I went for the Tein Street Flex with EDFC Active Pro which I suppose is very Japanese and you can programme it in regard of stiffening under G-force lateral and longitudinal and speed, so many permutations to get a good setup. I've worked quite a lot of mine and have been supported by Tein UK in respect of the development choosing my own spring rates. To be fair to Tein, Fensport & RRG they have provided an excellent service in working on this product and it was a lot to do with that that made me go for the Tein with the Active Pro. I just know that if any issues occur product support will be excellent and to be fair I got quite friendly with Yukiko at Tein so nothing is a problem. 

 

For me it was a toss up between that and the KW's. With the Tein and Active Pro I ended up spending £2.5K fitted so they're not cheap but I went for them as I liked the idea of having active suspension and being able to tailor it to my needs. I've had it on now for over 10K miles and got the setup very good, the car handles way better than stock as a result. 

 

But, if I had £3.5K to spend I may well look at the Ohlins as a better alternative. I did look at AST but was put off a bit by stories about their longevity. 

 

I think stuff like BC's represent good value for money though I admit I was put off them when I found out they were made in Taiwan. This doesn't mean they are poorly made but rather that the quality of materials may well be lower. Well, something has to give at their price point I would say. 

[Guest]

Thanks for that detailed reply Lauren. As for labour cost, there wont be any, as I will fit the set up myself. I may pay for an alignment, but if I do, it would be my first??

 

I will look into the Tein set up, I wasn't aware you could buy AM programmable suspension?

 

As a 51 yr old Engineer, I know exactly where you're coming from when considering Taiwanese materials. I'm just not convinced?? One thing I did notice on the HSD set up is that the front lower strut section is fabricated from steel, whereas the Ohlins is alloy. I wonder if this would be a better option for a UK based road car. We've all suffered issues where steel and alloy meet water and salt!!

 

Thanks again.

[toyokid 27]

What put me off Teins were 20-22mm pistons

and too much experience of Japanese KYB shockers,

I personally think bigger pistons are better, but there is a price to pay!

I am picking up some Ohlins tomorrow.

 

Stephen

p.s. I think I have blown my standard shockers, a strip will tell!

[Lauren 2259]

I think it's a compromise whatever you do unless you go £3K and up. I have a friend who does rallying who swears that you have to spend £8K and then the handling is amazing. I'm sure it is, but that's a lot of money. 

 

Yes, the TEIN programmable EDFC Active Pro uses current electronics in a pretty low tech way by putting stepper motors on the adjustable rods on top of the dampers. Though this may be seen by some as low tech, the stepper motors are very accurate and very quick, quick enough to react to changing lateral and longitudinal g-force on the fly. In practice it works surprisingly well and of course you can configure it to react in the way you want. You can also change damper force by speed which are pre-programmed settings. 

 

I fiddled with mine probably a bit more than anyone else who has them in the UK and after about 3 months and 10K miles of experimenting I've got what I think is a really good setting programmed in that means the car is comfortable at lower speeds, stiffens as you increase your speed then can really stiffen up if I chuck the car at a corner. On the straight it softens off again. Sort of the best of both worlds. 

 

Stephen is right bigger diameter monotube dampers are better, can't argue with that. If monotubes have good longetivity (like a twin tube setup) then they are a great option if you can afford it. 

 

I agree with Stephen about KYB's, but they are budget really and normally too stiff on UK roads. Japanese roads are generally smoother in my experience, they never have pot holes, but do on occasion have ridges which can be bumpy in places. I've also had experience with TRD dampers on my AE86 which seem to be made by KYB being way over stiff.  This is a reason why I went for adjustable dampers that adjust automatically on the fly because I too was worried about getting a setup that didn't flow on UK roads.  I also specced 5kg front springs on my TEINS (they come with 6/6kg) and 7/7kg in Japan. I had TEIN UK contact TEIN Japan and had it run by the engineers first before they would agree to airfreight a 5kg front spring. 

 

In a way I took a chance on testing the lower rate spring, but I wanted the car to weight transfer under braking so I could bring the rear into play. I've had no problems running a 5kg front spring, it's fine with the dampers and now you can spec that option from TEIN. They've been very helpful I must say as I'm sure Keith and Dave can concur, Yukiko knows her stuff and works hard to get an improvement. 

 

Really I've enjoyed being involved in the development of the product in the UK. It's all good fun. 

 

I feel with the geo changes, that the car easily outhandles a stock car, though it could of course be that I jump in Stephen's car with the Ohlins and realise there's another level. 

 

I think just do as much research as you can as choosing the right suspension for you is vital and if you can do it cost no object, even better! 

[toyokid 27]

Hi Lauren

 

Thank you for your analysis,

I seem to remember running 5kg front and 4 kg rear springs on BC coilovers.

Ohlins run 6kg all round, but balanced by a better quality shocker.

I have been quoted £2350 for those units

and will self fit,

run them for a week or so

and Darell Staniforth should then be back from hols to corner weight etc,

not sure whether to get camber bolts for the rear.

I would be happy with a 10-15mm drop from the Ohlins,

my understanding is their valves adjust damping to load?

As a layman,

I will be looking to run near full soft for daily driving

and max it for track,

fine tuning required..

 

Stepping back a few years,

I could never get 22mm piston suspension to work properly on a 1450kg Celica over challenging roads,

just before I sold the 340bhp ST205 model it was working perfectly with Bilstein B8 40mm piston suspension using 8kg front and 5kg rear springs (Celica front end carries much more weight).

 

Stephen

[toyokid 27]

a pic

[Lauren 2259]

You will need the offset bushes, Stephen for the rear so you can get the camber set. Obviously the front you'll be able to sort easily with the top mounts. 

 

If they are one way adjustable, then the dampers will allow tuning of rebound, but compression will be set. That is not a problem though. 

 

BC are 5/5kgs from what I understand. The 86 as standard has 3/4kgs springs so stiffer at the rear a balance I wanted to keep. 6/6kgs is fine though, I think it tends the car a little more to understeer, but not hugely so. I only know this from driving Keith's car though he has whopping 245s on his car all round which makes it more of a challenge to overcome the grip!

[toyokid 27]

Hi Lauren,

thanks for this,

do you have a "link" for bushes?

 

Stephen

[toyokid 27]

This the one?

 

http://www.fensport.co.uk/Parts/Model_108/Category_2/4524

[Lauren 2259]

Looks like it. I just got RRG/Fensport to sort out that stuff for me. 

[toyokid 27]

Just looking forward to the suspension holding cornering energy in a good way

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ade 517]

I've been looking at the various options for suspention. Bare in mind the roll centre of the car reacts differently at the front than back when lowering the car.

 

WIth a 20mm drop it seems you need to stiffen the front up more than the back to maintan the balance of the stock setup..... This is why most coilovers are the same front and back rates. The ohlins are 6kg/6kg front/back.........

 

Coilovers with hard top mounts will never be as good over a rough surface as the rubber mounted OEM. I quite like the look of the Bilstein B6 shocks with Race Comp Engineering Yellows for daily driving and mild track use. They get good reviews in the US. Though the B6 shocks might need revalving to match the RCE spring rates which is not cheap.....

[toyokid 27]

Yes, I was thinking about Bilstein coilovers,

circa £1600 for adjustable ones,

then you probably need to get aftermarket top mounts....

then everybody says you are better with linear springs......

then you get near to the price of Ohlins.

I will post up some pics of my kit.

Gotta build up the legs tonight

and spray a load of grease on then.

 

I am probably looking at a maximum 20mm drop.

The effect of inboard rear shocks being they will run softer than the fronts which are attached to the hub,

the front Ohlin shocks are beasts!

 

Stephen

 

Stephen

[Lauren 2259]

I've been looking at the various options for suspention. Bare in mind the roll centre of the car reacts differently at the front than back when lowering the car.

 

WIth a 20mm drop it seems you need to stiffen the front up more than the back to maintan the balance of the stock setup..... This is why most coilovers are the same front and back rates. The ohlins are 6kg/6kg front/back.........

 

 

 

That's interesting to know, nobody and I mean nobody has said that as to why aftermarket manufacturers specify matched spring rates front and rear. 

 

I may well have tipped the balance a bit more on my car then. I wonder given that technically speaking I understand what a rollcentre is and what it means, but had not considered it would have a big effect on such a small suspension drop. I understand how the roll centre can be messed up if you drop your car a large amount. 

 

Given I've gone effectively softer on the front, it may then make the car feel a little more lively at the rear end. Also we got Tein UK to revalve the rear dampers increasing the rate by 20%. 

 

I've taken my car on track and on a number of sprints and messed about with the EDFC settings. It seems to work very well just IMO of course. The turn in is very good indeed, very little understeer. It seems fairly easy to balance the car on the throttle but it is proper lively at high speeds if you throw it in at the top of 3rd gear or in 4th gear and you have to catch it quickly. But to an extent you might expect that much. To be fair I cut my teeth many years ago on MK1 MR2 SC's on track and they are a lot more lively when the rear goes at high speed, so it's not an issue in the 86. 

[toyokid 27]

That's interesting to know, nobody and I mean nobody has said that as to why aftermarket manufacturers specify matched spring rates front and rear. 

 

I may well have tipped the balance a bit more on my car then. I wonder given that technically speaking I understand what a rollcentre is and what it means, but had not considered it would have a big effect on such a small suspension drop. I understand how the roll centre can be messed up if you drop your car a large amount. 

 

Given I've gone effectively softer on the front, it may then make the car feel a little more lively at the rear end. Also we got Tein UK to revalve the rear dampers increasing the rate by 20%. 

 

I've taken my car on track and on a number of sprints and messed about with the EDFC settings. It seems to work very well just IMO of course. The turn in is very good indeed, very little understeer. It seems fairly easy to balance the car on the throttle but it is proper lively at high speeds if you throw it in at the top of 3rd gear or in 4th gear and you have to catch it quickly. But to an extent you might expect that much. To be fair I cut my teeth many years ago on MK1 MR2 SC's on track and they are a lot more lively when the rear goes at high speed, so it's not an issue in the 86. 

 

Hello Lauren

 

You bring a level of track experience that few of us would hope to match

and I for one welcome your feedback.

 

I have experienced, albeit for a short time

the fun of a well sorted road set up can bring,

the ability of suspension to hold energy over undulating roads,

not feeling out of control,

just well balanced and chuckable.

 

I will post up a video of the local North Yorks TT course,

to give an idea of challenging roads,

after corner weighting.

 

Stephen

[toyokid 27]

most memorable cars on this course being a

Peugeot Mi16

and a

340bhp Celica gt4 with 40mm bilstein coilovers

[hashiriya 52]

(Trying not to sound too preachy as someone who works for a manufacturer)

 

I'd certainly recommend trying to find a mono-tube setup over a twin tube for various performance reasons. The larger piston mentioned above is one of those for sure.

 

If you are looking for a good all round setup for road and circuit the key is in finding a damper which can offer high levels of dampening at slow piston speeds and less dampening at higher piston speeds. this would allow the car to feel firm and planted when cornering etc but will have that "give" when hitting bumps etc. This way you don't need to have too hard a spring and can still get the cornering performance.

 

The setup like the Tein EDFC offers such a solution by electronically adjusting the dampening force during those situations and I can't comment first hand as I've not driven a set before but I do wonder how quickly a stepper motor setup could react in those situations. I'd be interested to hear more about that from people with experience.

 

My HKS Hipermax setup has an internal valve setup which allows the oil flow through the shaft to be different in compression and extension and also has been setup in other areas to achieve the slow/fast dampening performance I mentioned above. the mono-tube structure is one of the factors that allows this also. It doesn't have the electronic control that TEIN do so it's not as "on the fly" but I feel it's able to cope in almost every situation.

 

I've always said that anyone who is interested in any of the parts I have on my car are always welcome to drive my car on a suitable occasion. If any of you want to have a go, just shout me anytime.

[Lauren 2259]

Maz, have a go of my car, anytime. In fact if you've done the stage 2 mods to your SC setup, I'd very interested to try it as I feel it didn't get a fair comparison as I had driven Keith's car before driving your's and he has a bit more power. 

 

In terms of how quick the stepper motors react, they are extremely quick, they have to be really. But, they do react seemingly instantly to changes in G-load whether laterally or longitudinally. I think you'd be surprised at how quick they are. 

 

Given the adjustability and programmability of the EDFC Active Pro, I've been a bit of a student of Yukiko! But after endless playing with it, I've now got a really good road setup and something that I can easily switch to and play with on the track. It allows me to run full soft for speed bumps below 20 km/h and then for it to firm up to preset damper rates as I increase speed, so giving good stabiliy on the motorway and of course it will stiffen considerably once the g-force loads as you enter a corner. It's certainly a clever way of getting the most out of the suspension. 

 

I agree with you though a mono tube design is definitely preferable. I'd love to try a car with the Ohlins setup just so I can feel the difference. 

[hashiriya 52]

Sure thing Lauren, lets do a car swap sometime!

[Ade 517]

Lauren - Over on the FT86 club Race Comp Engineering discussed the reasoning for a square setup. Their highly regarded RCE Yellow and Tarmac Springs are square (well almost - tarmacs are 5kg/5.1kg) and a lot of people were questioning why they didn't just add 20% front and back or whatever, like eibach and others, to keep the same ratio as the stock setup. The reasoning is how the roll center at the front and back of the car changes with a 20mm drop.

 

Race Comp Engineering really know their stuff and give lots of good advice on the ft86 club.

[Lauren 2259]

Interesting stuff. I wonder how having the 5kg rate affects things given all that?

 

Obviously I've driven my car for 10K miles like this, I've not noticed any issues. In regard to my knowledge of handling and driving, I'm competent as I'm sure many would agree, but if there are handling quirks as a result I would tend to drive around them, though I've not noticed any. The car handles well IMO. Whether it would improve it with a 6kg spring is another question.

 

I've driven Keith's car a bit with the 6/6kg setup. Last time I drove it was in the wet at Blyton Park, though he has very wide tyres which makes the car feel quite different from mine, for example there is more sidewall flex which dulls the response IMO.

[Ade 517]

I think the general consensus is that 5kg is possibly too high for UK roads. At the end of the day if you have stiff setup with appropriate grip, on a smooth surface it will grip very well, but on rough uk roads you may find it doesnt have enough complance and you lose grip compared to a softer spring.

 

For daily driving the RCE yellow are set at 4.5kg/4.5kg and match the koni/bilstein dampers very well though the stock dampers can be used with the shorter bump stops supplied with the springs.

 

I know someone with Ohlins (which are the road and track focused coilovers) on his car and was resonably happy, though I think he thought 6kg/6kg was too high.....

[Lauren 2259]

Interesting you say that as I was originally offered a 6/6kgs setup but didn't want the car too stiff so I specc'd the 5kg front springs.

 

In terms of compliance and control over bumps I've not had any issues. My damping strength varies though of course with load.

 

Though in saying that I've not heard anyone with the 6/6kg complain of issues with it being too stiff on UK roads. The BC stock setup is 5/5kg but most others seem to be 6/6kg.

 

I was though more interested to hear any thoughs you have on handling balance with the 5/6kg setup compared to a 6/6kg setup. My ride is fine to be fair and is I would say overall an improvement over standard.

[toyokid 27]

Just fitted the Ohlins today,

no alignments done,

set the pre-load on springs,

the handling feels very neutral from the factory, not very sharp on steering,

hope to amend this within the week.

 

IMO 6kg springs work really well, probably down to the quality of the shockers,

better ride than standard.

Only travelled 2 miles, so that is my experience.

 

Stephen