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ToothlessSimpleton

GR 86 or GT 86?

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This is a tough one to answer. The GR is undoubtedly the better car in every way, except for looks (subjectively), as initial reviews seem to suggest that it fixes all the deficiencies of the older model (most notably, the rather underwhelming torque delivery).

That said, it will of course be more expensive. So the argument will always be that you could buy a slightly older GT and modify it to fix those deficiencies anyway. I guess it comes down to what you want to do; some people probably aren't interested in modifying a car, in which case, maybe waiting for the new model is the best option.

Personally, I am interested in the GR86, but that's as someone who has owned a GT for 8 years (4 years of which it's been slightly modified) - so I think I'm due for a replacement at some point anyway. Still think the Mk1 GT86 looks better, but the looks of the GR are growing on me, and I think I could live with them to gain the other improvements. 

My advice would be to start saving now, and just wait until the GR86 is released. Then you can judge it yourself, but if you decide you want the older model, I imagine they might be cheaper once the GR is out anyway.

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If you are looking to spend £30k+ and can wait (as the chip shortage will almost certainly delay deliveries) then it makes sense to to get the GR86. Newer and technically further advanced over the GT86.

However for around £15k-20k you could buy a used turbocharged/supercharged GT86 which will run rings around the GR86 plus you’ll have £10k-15k left in your pocket.

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6 hours ago, Conscript said:

This is a tough one to answer. The GR is undoubtedly the better car in every way, except for looks (subjectively), as initial reviews seem to suggest that it fixes all the deficiencies of the older model (most notably, the rather underwhelming torque delivery).

That said, it will of course be more expensive. So the argument will always be that you could buy a slightly older GT and modify it to fix those deficiencies anyway. I guess it comes down to what you want to do; some people probably aren't interested in modifying a car, in which case, maybe waiting for the new model is the best option.

Personally, I am interested in the GR86, but that's as someone who has owned a GT for 8 years (4 years of which it's been slightly modified) - so I think I'm due for a replacement at some point anyway. Still think the Mk1 GT86 looks better, but the looks of the GR are growing on me, and I think I could live with them to gain the other improvements. 

My advice would be to start saving now, and just wait until the GR86 is released. Then you can judge it yourself, but if you decide you want the older model, I imagine they might be cheaper once the GR is out anyway.

This is what I was thinking (RE: performance) regarding looks, the GT takes it - for me at least, idk why but the front of the GR reminds me of a cheap Cayman S knockoff.

At the same time I know that there are a bazillion aftermarket parts for the GT86 so any modding is more akin to a Miata (at least in terms of variety).

1 hour ago, Leeky said:

If you are looking to spend £30k+ and can wait (as the chip shortage will almost certainly delay deliveries) then it makes sense to to get the GR86. Newer and technically further advanced over the GT86.

However for around £15k-20k you could buy a used turbocharged/supercharged GT86 which will run rings around the GR86 plus you’ll have £10k-15k left in your pocket.

This is what I was thinking too. I've looked into putting a turbo on it, but all in all that would in itself add another 6-7k depending on where you buy from, so that plus around 12-15k for a 60k mile car... Yeah I think I'd rather engine swap at that point.

 

I guess totally unrelated to the original post, but have any of you done an engine swap on your GT?

P.S If I had another 30k burning a hole in my pocket I'd buy a brand new GT and keep it in the garage for a few years, at the rate that these cars are getting riced and crashed (usually in that order) I recon a low mileage MK1s will be in demand in like 8 years time.

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12 hours ago, ToothlessSimpleton said:

This is what I was thinking (RE: performance) regarding looks, the GT takes it - for me at least, idk why but the front of the GR reminds me of a cheap Cayman S knockoff.

At the same time I know that there are a bazillion aftermarket parts for the GT86 so any modding is more akin to a Miata (at least in terms of variety).

This is what I was thinking too. I've looked into putting a turbo on it, but all in all that would in itself add another 6-7k depending on where you buy from, so that plus around 12-15k for a 60k mile car... Yeah I think I'd rather engine swap at that point.

 

I guess totally unrelated to the original post, but have any of you done an engine swap on your GT?

P.S If I had another 30k burning a hole in my pocket I'd buy a brand new GT and keep it in the garage for a few years, at the rate that these cars are getting riced and crashed (usually in that order) I recon a low mileage MK1s will be in demand in like 8 years time.

An engine swap is going to cost at least double the £6-7000 to turbo. If you go TD turbo and oil cooler is about £5000 all done.

if your thinking of modding I’d buy 2nd hand and have it all already done. Did list a classified for mine but don’t think I can bring myself to sell it however £15’000-£20’000 you could get a GT already fully sorted 

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13 hours ago, ToothlessSimpleton said:

This is what I was thinking (RE: performance) regarding looks, the GT takes it - for me at least, idk why but the front of the GR reminds me of a cheap Cayman S knockoff.

At the same time I know that there are a bazillion aftermarket parts for the GT86 so any modding is more akin to a Miata (at least in terms of variety).

This is what I was thinking too. I've looked into putting a turbo on it, but all in all that would in itself add another 6-7k depending on where you buy from, so that plus around 12-15k for a 60k mile car... Yeah I think I'd rather engine swap at that point.

 

I guess totally unrelated to the original post, but have any of you done an engine swap on your GT?

P.S If I had another 30k burning a hole in my pocket I'd buy a brand new GT and keep it in the garage for a few years, at the rate that these cars are getting riced and crashed (usually in that order) I recon a low mileage MK1s will be in demand in like 8 years time.

I'm actually keeping mine standard, and agree regarding values, an unmolested GT86 will be a sought after car for sure.

 Also agree regarding looks, the GT86 is  very pure design, love it. 

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8 minutes ago, Daninplymouth said:

Not sure about the unmodded examples as the engine is a bit flat stock I’m not sure it’ll be as sort after as some other models

On 99ron, and with just a performance filter, I think it's a cracking engine. 

There's no denying the dip, but it's so easily driven around, and moves the needle nicely to 7krpm. 

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22 minutes ago, DuncanM said:

On 99ron, and with just a performance filter, I think it's a cracking engine. 

There's no denying the dip, but it's so easily driven around, and moves the needle nicely to 7krpm. 

There's no denying that a header and remap makes a massive difference which you would enjoy daily.

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Id advise against engine swaps. The whole reason the car is NA and a flat 4 is for a low centre of gravity. Any other engine is going to mess up the weight distribution and subsequently the handling.

The FA20 is already a great motor. Makes more sense to Supercharge or Turbocharge it rather than swap it out.

I’ve done 8 engine swaps and I basically regret all of them as the reality never quite lives up to the dream. There is a good reason manufacturers choose the engines they do in their cars. They have lots of engineers, designers, accountants and sales people choosing what works best.

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2 hours ago, ThatGuyThere said:

There's no denying that a header and remap makes a massive difference which you would enjoy daily.

I know! I am tempted for sure :)

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Or just leave it stock! One of the things I love about the BRZ is that it's not a Toyota 😉

The other thing I love is that you really have to work to get the most out of it and there is something very rewarding about that. You can't be lazy and ride on a wave of torque, you have to work the cogs and rev the engine to get the best out of it. Yes it's not very torquey low down but so what? It revs to 7400rpm and there aren't many engines that offer that from mainstream manufacturers, and thanks to turbos the reward to rev is low.

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7 minutes ago, McDude said:

Or just leave it stock! One of the things I love about the BRZ is that it's not a Toyota 😉

The other thing I love is that you really have to work to get the most out of it and there is something very rewarding about that. You can't be lazy and ride on a wave of torque, you have to work the cogs and rev the engine to get the best out of it. Yes it's not very torquey low down but so what? It revs to 7400rpm and there aren't many engines that offer that from mainstream manufacturers, and thanks to turbos the reward to rev is low.

Exactly how I feel about mine, if anything the engine is one of my favourite things on the car. 

I bought mine to keep me happy whilst doing a rolling restore on my TVR, I can honestly say that it's been one of the best cars I've owned, and will keep the TVR honest for driving thrills. 

IMG_20210820_203135_181.webp

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6 minutes ago, DuncanM said:

Exactly how I feel about mine, if anything the engine is one of my favourite things on the car. 

I bought mine to keep me happy whilst doing a rolling restore on my TVR, I can honestly say that it's been one of the best cars I've owned, and will keep the TVR honest for driving thrills. 

IMG_20210820_203135_181.webp

That's lovely motor, great colour too

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10 minutes ago, ToothlessSimpleton said:

That's lovely motor, great colour too

Thank you! :) had it since 2004, doing a rolling restoration on it currently.

GT86 is a genuine great in it's own right imo 

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On 9/28/2021 at 1:58 PM, ToothlessSimpleton said:

Off topic question, but why do you need a new header when going for a remap? Is the stock one poorly made to handle tuning? 

Yeah it's designed in such a way that it restricts flow. I'd love to know if anyone has remapped using stock header though, and the results...

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On 9/29/2021 at 2:52 PM, ThatGuyThere said:

Yeah it's designed in such a way that it restricts flow. I'd love to know if anyone has remapped using stock header though, and the results...

NA_HP.jpg

On 9/28/2021 at 4:34 PM, DuncanM said:

Exactly how I feel about mine, if anything the engine is one of my favourite things on the car. 

Really? I loved the GT but the engine was pretty much the thing I disliked the most; not particularly characterful in sound and powerband was meh. I had come from a near enough 9k rpm Honda though where the engine was the real heart of that car.

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10 minutes ago, Kodename47 said:

NA_HP.jpg

Really? I loved the GT but the engine was pretty much the thing I disliked the most; not particularly characterful in sound and powerband was meh. I had come from a near enough 9k rpm Honda though where the engine was the real heart of that car.

Cool, thanks for sharing. Still a noticable dip then if keeping stock manifold.

Agreed on engine - it's a little meh.

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On 9/29/2021 at 2:52 PM, ThatGuyThere said:

Yeah it's designed in such a way that it restricts flow. I'd love to know if anyone has remapped using stock header though, and the results...

Stock header here. Made 215 NA and now over 300bhp SC’d. Its not quite the restriction its made out to be.

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8 hours ago, Leeky said:

Stock header here. Made 215 NA and now over 300bhp SC’d. Its not quite the restriction its made out to be.

It's a restriction if staying NA - mapping an NA car without an aftermarket manifold is a lot of money for little benefit. 215 NA without any other mods sounds a bit like a dyno with an optimistic calibration! What did it record before the remap?

@ThatGuyThere the problem is delivery, not peak output, and mapping alone can't fix that. 100bhp/litre for a modern NA engine is very high - in terms of peak output, Toyota/Subaru have pretty much maxed out that engine given emissions regs.

 

Back on the original topic, I'd definitely say the GT86 is better looking, but in every other way the GR86 sounds like it's better. If I were buying now I'd be inclined to buy the GR and spend money on fixing the cosmetic stuff.

(Actually, who am I kidding, I'd more likely buy the GR and modify the hell out of it... 😂)

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7 hours ago, spikyone said:

215 NA without any other mods sounds a bit like a dyno with an optimistic calibration!

Who said I didn’t have any other mods? lol

That was with Cosworth stage 1.2.

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On 10/5/2021 at 1:43 PM, Kodename47 said:

NA_HP.jpg

Really? I loved the GT but the engine was pretty much the thing I disliked the most; not particularly characterful in sound and powerband was meh. I had come from a near enough 9k rpm Honda though where the engine was the real heart of that car.

It's certainly against the census of opinion, it does everything I want and need out of an engine, and I quite like the sound at 7k. It produces good power between 5-7k, and with the excellent gearbox, is easy to get moving. 

You also get an engine with very low emissions, that can do 40mpg when needed. That's what makes it excellent to me, it does two jobs, making it a superb daily or only car. 

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23 hours ago, DuncanM said:

It's certainly against the census of opinion, it does everything I want and need out of an engine, and I quite like the sound at 7k. It produces good power between 5-7k, and with the excellent gearbox, is easy to get moving. 

You also get an engine with very low emissions, that can do 40mpg when needed. That's what makes it excellent to me, it does two jobs, making it a superb daily or only car. 

Everything is relative. Driving it back to back with a 325ti though, and the engine is so much nicer in the BMW which cost a tenth of the GT86. Same MPG in the real world, sounds  better, smoother, more torque, same BHP. Not that I'm comparing the cars, but the engine in the GT86 remains meh.

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