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Rexer200

Replacement for Ohlins R&T

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Can anyone who has previously owned the Ohlins MP20 kit (f4k r3k springs) recommend an alternative suspension kit for road and Track use.

I currently have the above kit on stock top mounts and I really don’t like it especially at the rear, when travelling down bumpy b Roads The car is very unstable at speed as it uses up its suspension travel very quickly. I’ve ordered the ohlins 5K rear springs but I really don’t think these will totally solve the problem.
I’m willing to spend whatever it takes to get decent suspension on this car.

Other chassis mods to the car are, S-wave RCAs, połybushed, TRD braces, Cusco ARBs, 18s on 235 AD08s

This is my first post on this forum but Ive owned modified cars for over 20 years. I’m looking for information from people who have suspension rather than opinions from people who think they know what it should be like. I will use car on uk roads and 3-4 track days per year

Fensport, Who built the car have recommended tein flex z with edfc pro, But again the lack of suspension travel on this kit really concerns me. I don’t particularly want to lower the car I just wanted to be able to go well on the road and track. As I mentioned the price is not really an issue for the right proven set up.

 

 

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Ohlins with 60N/mm all round are not bad at all. I forget the numbers but of the top on my head, with 2mm passenger side and about 7mm preload driver side, with me in it - its got about 15mm free travel then another 40mm of bumper stop travel (progressive bump stops). 

Honestly if you need to bump travel due to the road you drive on then not many coilovers will be much use. The only ones I would look at are the bilsteins are they have lots of bump, but they wont be as good on track - but who care unless your racing? 

 

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If more suspension travel is goal, heard mentioned in that context KW (or ST, which is "budget" subbrand of KW).

What is your use? Track or only those mentioned b roads?

Are you absolutely sure that it's bottomed out rear shocks that make your car unstable? Have you tried adjusting shocks?

Can you post your alignment numbers (i'm suspecting that rather current alignment might be culprit)? Also how exactly unstability propagates? Rear? Entering corner? Exciting corner? In straight under gas?

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Thanks both for your quick replies

ive looked at the Bilstein B16s and at least one person has written a decent uk road review but from what I’ve read they don’t seem to cut it on the track as they are too soft
The problem I have is not alignment it’s the fact that the car seems to be just bottoming out and then skipping over the bumps and losing traction, on smooth roads it’s ok. 
the precious owner had the common front damper bush problem fixed in 2018 and Fensport did the alignment then.

Ive got ST XTA’ on my mini r56 and they’re ok to a point but on the GT86 how much more travel do they have cs Ohlins? Surely the KW Clubsport V3s would be better for travel as they have remote canisters.  

One thing I have noticed visually, even considering the rear spring is 230mm free length it does seem to have lots of preload. Ohlins recommend 28mm and the Swave RCA have lower mounting points but even considering this there seems like lots of thread there.

EB1C78A4-1903-40B6-88D4-633F9F9E660B.jpeg

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Ohlins have height adjustment independent from spring preload. See from spring perch, not from threaded cup on shock bottom, which can be bolted on deeper or for higher total coilover height, less, with no change to preload/travel/damping.

Still, imho there seems something off. Seen also good spoken of reviews about even softer R&T, at least for driving on public roads.

Hmm, btw, those ARBs cannot cause issues? Thicker/stiffer rollbars reduce roll, yes .. but they also make suspension less independent and reduce grip due overloading one from them on axle. And in some cases "making car faster" comes from driver feeling more subjective confidence to push more on flatter cornering car, not because aftermarket rollbars somehow magically gained grip. How about trying stock rollbars?

I'd also think of trying out a bit more toe-in in rear, hence why i asked your current alignment numbers.

If one drives on grip limit, sometimes also electronic nannies may introduce some unwished corrections, such as unexpected/abrupt stability control or "e-diff" interruptions with braking wheels during slip or if one wheel hops in air. Though i'm not sure it's wise to drive on very limit on public roads with many uncontrollable variables (oncoming traffic, blind corners, unpredictability of others in traffic, kids/pets) and where by road design mistakes may cost more (blind corners, kerbs, no run-off zones), but imho driving on some 7/10 should surface way less possible issues/limits.

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Thanks both for your quick replies

ive looked at the Bilstein B16s and at least one person has written a decent uk road review but from what I’ve read they don’t seem to cut it on the track as they are too soft
The problem I have is not alignment it’s the fact that the car seems to be just bottoming out and then skipping over the bumps and losing traction, on smooth roads it’s ok. 
the precious owner had the common front damper bush problem fixed in 2018 and Fensport did the alignment then.

Ive got ST XTA’ on my mini r56 and they’re ok to a point but on the GT86 how much more travel do they have cs Ohlins? Surely the KW Clubsport V3s would be better for travel as they have remote canisters.  

One thing I have noticed visually, even considering the rear spring is 230mm free length it does seem to have lots of preload. Ohlins recommend 28mm and the Swave RCA have lower mounting points but even considering this there seems like lots of thread there.

AD0AAF4D-C5F9-43F2-AB03-5B7004B4439E.jpeg

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Having remote canisters or not imho has little relation to available bumpless shock travel. And, if anything, given that clubsport seems targeting more track and is stiffer sprung (imho might greatily compromising compliance/comfort for daily driving), and more lowering, i wouldn't be surprised if there had been even less travel. (no clue on actual data). External canisters main purposes are more volume, less overheat/more predictable functioning, maybe more adjustment options. Not affecting travel in any way. I'd rather expect less hardcore-ish V3 or V1 to have more travel. I'm still not too convinced that it's coilovers to blame for unwished handling specifics.

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Ehh..Changing toe or arbs won’t stop the suspension crashing on its bumpstops, although may make skipping less. The 3K springs on my Ohlins are too soft for the given shock travel IMO, and the reason why Ohlins have now switched to 5k springs
remote canister shocks have the potential for more travel due to not having to house valve in main shock body, however as I mentioned right at the start I’m not looking for theory I’m looking for comments from people who actually have a good B road setup on their GT86.
 

Ade, I understand you have the old Ohlins kit and your generally happy with it on B roads 
church, what setup do you have ? Is it good on B roads?

any more real world info here?

at the moment I’ve been recommended by Fensport to swap my Ohlins for Tein A’s
 

 

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@Rexer200 Nigel who used to be on here swapped the original Ohlins for Tein Flex A's and said he preferred it. He's the only person I've heard of to have tried both.

I had the Flex A's and they are excellent on the road as the hydraulic bump stops really help.

I now have Moton's with remote reservoirs - they too are excellent for soaking up bumps however the remote reservoirs do add an element of almost lag to them so they aren't at their happiest at lower speeds on little bumps.

The big problem with the 86 suspension wise is that the rear dampers are so short so you'll never really get a 'magic carpet' ride from them.

(Just for context I've tried stock suspension, AST lowering springs, Meister R GT1's, Meister R Zeta R's, Tein Flex A's and Moton Clubsports - on which I've tried well into double figures of spring set ups ranging from 3-14kg. I use the car on both road and track but don't use it daily).

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Well, there is also such option (warning: some car porn pics :D ) with way more travel & capability, but due $17K price range i suspect that it won't be considered :)

Deacon: was Nigel's Ohlins original MI20 or MP21 with softer springrates? And just Flex A, or +EDFC? BTW, how you think of Meister-s & Motons relative to eg. stock or Teins?

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Thanks @Deacon, that's really useful feedback..

However, I'm not able to find GT86 / BRZ on the Moton product finder? https://motonsuspension.co.uk/product-finder

Have they stopped making them? Seems the same for AST, I'm guessing Moton and AST are the same company by the look of their websites.

I've also contacted Reiger to try and get some information as I know Toyota rally cars use them.

I've used Nitron suspension in the past on a different car, who do stuff for the GT86, but again I don't want to be the first, I'd prefer to buy on real recommendation.

Seeing as all coilovers discussed seem to have have shock travel issues then maybe it would be better to go for BRZ tS setup (where do I buy this?) or even some Cusco touring 40 way adjustable dampers on the stiffest stock springs (as per BRZ tS / B16's, I'm not sure if these clear my 18x8 ET35's on the front?)

Lastly, I don't know how these would be on track with sticky A1 / R888R rubber?

 

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@Church, Those Ohlins TTX do look good. You're right I don't want to spend £17k, I want something under £5k ideally. Also, the travel simply comes from a longer strut by the look of it. Such a shame there doesn't seem to be a coilover kit less than £5k that is designed to keep stock shock travel, even if I had to run them at stock ride height.

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11 minutes ago, Rexer200 said:

Thanks @Deacon, that's really useful feedback..

However, I'm not able to find GT86 / BRZ on the Moton product finder? https://motonsuspension.co.uk/product-finder

Have they stopped making them? Seems the same for AST, I'm guessing Moton and AST are the same company by the look of their websites.

I've also contacted Reiger to try and get some information as I know Toyota rally cars use them.

I've used Nitron suspension in the past on a different car, who do stuff for the GT86, but again I don't want to be the first, I'd prefer to buy on real recommendation.

Seeing as all coilovers discussed seem to have have shock travel issues then maybe it would be better to go for BRZ tS setup (where do I buy this?) or even some Cusco touring 40 way adjustable dampers on the stiffest stock springs (as per BRZ tS / B16's, I'm not sure if these clear my 18x8 ET35's on the front?)

Lastly, I don't know how these would be on track with sticky A1 / R888R rubber?

 

You have to contact AST / Moton direct for pricing.

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28 minutes ago, Church said:

Well, there is also such option (warning: some car porn pics :D ) with way more travel & capability, but due $17K price range i suspect that it won't be considered :)

Deacon: was Nigel's Ohlins original MI20 or MP21 with softer springrates? And just Flex A, or +EDFC? BTW, how you think of Meister-s & Motons relative to eg. stock or Teins?

Nigel's were the original ohlins and he had just Flex A's - no edfc.

Meister R has excellent customer service and refunded my money. I'll say no more.

Motons are amazing. Low speed ride is not as good as e.g. the Flex A's but they are much better on big bumps, potholes, etc and at high speed they are amazing.

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8 hours ago, Rexer200 said:

These 5Ks just arrived so I’ll try swapping out the rear 3Ks for these and see what it’s like

 

EEB446EC-5180-4E77-ACEC-C82EB6C237E1.jpeg

Where did you sourse the 5k's from?

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To suggest the flex As are even close to the Ohlins is ludicous.

Nigel spent best part of 100k making a track car that eventually got scrapped before it was finished.

His other gt86 that got the Ohlins was used to drive a few miles to his work and back, never used on track at all. The guy loved to tinker but wasn't a driver. How do I know this? I bought my Ohlins kit from him. I went to his house and met the guy and saw his work.

Smart guy with good fabrication skills but to say flex A are better than Ohlins based on a 3 mile drive to work is silly and utter rubbish. 

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If you're using the track to compare, I wouldn't even put Flex As in the mix tbh, I keep being tempted to switch back to the mono sports now that my car isn't used much at all.

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I bought these springs from BG motorsport who are close to me. They can also rebuild the shocks if needed, hence my choice.

I notice Swift springs via Driftworks do someID65 5k springs with 225mm length (these are 200) which might have better but for now I thought I’d stick with Ohlins

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35 minutes ago, Mike said:

If you're using the track to compare, I wouldn't even put Flex As in the mix tbh, I keep being tempted to switch back to the mono sports now that my car isn't used much at all.

Finding them too softly valved? That's what I thought and led me to the Motons.

Tein released some which are between the SRC's and the MonoSports. They'd be interesting to try but not heard of anyone running them.

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19 minutes ago, Deacon said:

Finding them too softly valved? That's what I thought and led me to the Motons.

Tein released some which are between the SRC's and the MonoSports. They'd be interesting to try but not heard of anyone running them.

Yep, until track activities resume, there's no point in replacing them yet. May get round to it one day...

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I am about to go from Flex A to AST 5100. The tein's just don't cut it on a B road and a bit soft for track work. AST offer a raised front top mount which should be a helpful addition, I am assuming its the same top mount @Deacon has on his Moton's.

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57 minutes ago, AJ124 said:

I am about to go from Flex A to AST 5100. The tein's just don't cut it on a B road and a bit soft for track work. AST offer a raised front top mount which should be a helpful addition, I am assuming its the same top mount @Deacon has on his Moton's.

It is.

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2 hours ago, AJ124 said:

I am about to go from Flex A to AST 5100. The tein's just don't cut it on a B road and a bit soft for track work. AST offer a raised front top mount which should be a helpful addition, I am assuming its the same top mount @Deacon has on his Moton's.

Very interesting to hear what you think about them.

what made you decide to choose them?

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