Brakes seized?

[VAD17 479]

Looks like brakes seized. Completely out of a blue.

 

Had a track day on Sunday, drove 145 miles back, no issues.

 

Wednesday evening starting the car and it wouldn't move. In neautral fine, in gear wheels wouldn't move and if I try to push the throttle pedal (thinking may be rust stuck a bit after heavy rain), ABS engages, the car shakes a bit but still doesn't move.

 

Cant think what else this can be.

 

Possibly rear, and I was planning to replace stock brakes with bbk, but hope its not a front calipers or something more serious.

 

Plan is to find nearby garage and have them on standby and ask if AA can tow me to them, but considering wheels dont turn this may still require them to unstick the brakes.

 

What a debacle...

 

Would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions

 

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[nikndel 509]

Vad are you saying it freewheels in neutral ?

[Church 209]

I'd check also if there is no problem with parking brake. It's not always main brakes at fault. Meanwhile, can you (eg. using emergency jack) lift car and pinpoint which exactly wheel is not free spinning? Front? Rear? Left? Right?

[PeterH 14]

Vad are you saying it freewheels in neutral ?

As nikndel is alluding to - if it can be rolled when in neutral, then surely it can't be the brakes (not a mechanical issue anyway?)

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[Lauren 2259]

Yours being an auto makes it more complicated. If it moves in neutral it's a gearbox issue. 

[PeterH 14]

Not good. I'm not very familiar with auto 'boxes, but could it be worth checking any fuses etc (I'm assuming there must be some electronic control somewhere?), perhaps just to rule out what you can?

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[VAD17 479]

It doesn't roll in neutral, even though the car parked slightly downhill.
Could be the handbrake issue.
I couldn't jack up the car yesterday as it was too late and had to use the other car instead.
The plan for Saturday morning is is jack it up, check if the wheels turn (hopefully finding out) and see if gentle knock on calipers may help.


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[Lauren 2259]

Seems like a silly question, but have you tried to give it some welly? Also worth trying in reverse too. Easier on a manual car to be more brutal, but I would try giving it some throttle first.  Do let us know how you get on. My handbrake tends to stick a little if I haven't used my car for a few days, but it's not really any effort to get it to release. But I hear it unstick as I pull off my drive. 

[GravelRash 62]

15 minutes ago, Lauren said:

My handbrake tends to stick a little if I haven't used my car for a few days, but it's not really any effort to get it to release. But I hear it unstick as I pull off my drive. 

I had something similar after a long drive and heavy rain overnight. Car refused to budge on the 'usual' thottle. I gave it a boot, she shaked and then with an almighty bang, released.

That was a few weeks ago and she's been fine since.

[Conscript 45]

34 minutes ago, Lauren said:

Seems like a silly question, but have you tried to give it some welly? Also worth trying in reverse too. Easier on a manual car to be more brutal, but I would try giving it some throttle first.  Do let us know how you get on. My handbrake tends to stick a little if I haven't used my car for a few days, but it's not really any effort to get it to release. But I hear it unstick as I pull off my drive. 

I would second this. Try and shift it backwards and forwards and see if it cracks off. I imagine it might take a little more exuberance with an automatic as the torque converter is allowing some slip.

[Church 209]

BTW, how are you guys using handbrake? Do you keep it pulled all the time when parked? I've been tought to not stretch out cable and to reduce chance of seizing of freezing, to leave car in gear (on MT). I pull it only by habbit for short period when i start up engine, when parked on slope of hill or temporarily, when waiting long at traffic lights. Never when normally parked for longer period of time on flat parking spot.

[Lauren 2259]

2 minutes ago, Church said:

BTW, how are you guys using handbrake? Do you keep it pulled all the time when parked? I've been tought to not stretch out cable and to reduce chance of seizing of freezing, to leave car in gear (on MT). I pull it only by habbit for short period when i start up engine, when parked on slope of hill or temporarily, when waiting long at traffic lights. Never when normally parked for longer period of time on flat parking spot.

Yes, it is the done thing in the UK to have the handbrake on whenever the car is parked, even with automatics. 

[NJay 10]

The ferodo ds2500 pads I have on the Celica bbk like to on occasions weld themselves to the discs. Had to remove alloys one time and persuade them to free up with a rubber mallet. Lovely outline of the pad on the disc but some spirited braking cleared it.

 

So far in 2yr gt86 ownership I've just had the odd large clunk where the handbrake has stuck on after not using the car over winter holiday... usually teamed with needing to recharge the battery which is fairly typical if not used for a week (battery not faulty according to Toyota) lol

[Kaltorak 111]

Sorry to hear that VAD.

Jack it up at the front first to see if they spin, if it does likely it's the handbrake seized. The roads were seriously heavily salted for the drive back, so that would accelerate the binding to the brakes.

Some percussive persuasion on the rears may help if thats the case.

Dont forget if your floor it to try to brake the lock off, you're going to shoot forwards once it clears, so have a clear road around you!

[VAD17 479]

So its front calipers seized, not the hoses.
Waiting for recovery track now to take me to a nearby garage


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[PeterH 14]

Sorry to hear that vad, hope all goes well. I'll just mention, the rear brakes seized on my mazda 6 and I took it to a garage where they replaced both rear calipers, pads etc without much consideration (£600). Two weeks later, one of those calipers failed again, and was replaced under warranty, then another two weeks later the handbrake seized and the cable was wrecked. On my FOURTH trip to the garage, they dismantled everything, had a proper look, gave it a proper clean, and discovered that the slide pins were gunged up and weren't moving properly. They replaced these, and I've not had a problem since... My point is, don't necessarily assume the worst - it might be a £40 slide pin issue, instead of a hugely expensive caliper issue! Sorry for rambling - but i feel much better for getting that off my chest Best of luck!

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[nerdstrike 186]

Slider pins indeed. The RX8 liked to bind the rear brakes when the sliders didn't get adequate care, but I don't recall any binding hard like this.

[PeterH 14]

Slider pins indeed. The RX8 liked to bind the rear brakes when the sliders didn't get adequate care, but I don't recall any binding hard like this.

They were seized solid! I didn't realise that they had seized, i was driving back from Oxford to Wiltshire - doing 60mph +, got back to. Devizes and that was a suspicious smell,and the rear of the car was sinking to the floor when moving. After nursing it to the garage, they took it apart and the brake pads, in the mechanic's words "blew away in the breeze"... Lol. Not.

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[VAD17 479]

I hope its just slider pins or may be they need a good clean and greasing.
Recovery dudes didn't manage to get specialist truck today (to be fair I would rather wait than risk them damaging the front), so this will drag into next week
Its not like I experienced drag or anything, either on track or regular driving, they just got stuck completely out of the blue
I hope they got fixed before Bedford track day and would not require caliper replacement.

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[Rich196 103]

and rocking it back and forth doesn't get them to unstick? I have had this once in the 86, after a track day drove back in the wet parked it up. Left it for a little while could have been week to be fair, hand brake off I never leave it on in the garage. It needed 2k rpm and the clutch dumped to break them free. (that wasn't a fun thing to do in the garage)

[VAD17 479]

Ok, car is now off to a nearby garage. Fingers crossed

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[PeterH 14]

Fingers crossed!

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[VAD17 479]

Ok, here is the update...

Recovery guys took the car to a nearby garage (didn't have much choice, has to be within 10 miles) which I selected based on google reviews (hint - don't trust them).

Garage chaps called me and told that I have 6 pistons "damaged" and very rusty disks, and its better to replace calipers. I told them the disks are fine and ask to send photos of pistons so I can talk to KSports. (Nothing arrived, which got be somewhat suspicious). In their view they can get pistons moving, but there is a risk that they will seize again, and its very difficult to rebuild because its multiple pistons...

So, I was calling KSports and Reylands to see what my options and messaged @Mike@TD.co.uk….

After some re-assuring chat with Mike went myself to insect calipers… lo and behold - yes, they are very rusty and dirty but the garage cowboys didn't even challenge me when I told them they are fine (guess they just pushed them back). The pads are split and crumbling (wouldn't be surprised if they have done it) and need replacing, and there is a massive rusty patch where the pads got stuck to the disks, but I am 99.99% sure its just pads sticking to the disks badly (I don't think I even need disks skimmed, expected the rust will clear up after few good hard braking attempt on A3).

I still need to replace pads, but hopefully that's it. I am not even going to ask garage cowboys to clean disks and calipers as I just don't trust them at all. The disks are now turning although they are in rust and have 2 large pads patches to clear.

In fact, Mike thinks that if I got the recovery truck to pull the car hard there was a good chance the rust would've let go and the then I could clear up the brakes (happened before when I had to give it a good welly), although I do have 2 tyre marks on the driveway from rear wheels spinning when I tried. 

So not sorted yet, the car is in the cowboys garage without front wheels and pads need replacing. Pads should be arriving Friday (ordered just now), will go with Ferodo DS2500 again.

Fingers crossed, hopefully this would only cost me new pads and some worry about leaving the car in somewhat untrustworthy garage...

And that's why I would rather drive long way to TD or go to Abbey rather than letting some cowboys touching my car, they just have no shame at all (I'll post my review on Google as well, but only after I get my car back)😡

[Rich196 103]

I think it was due to pads and discs rusting. Hope you get it back soon, although I wouldn't be confident that you will get away with not having the discs skimmed that pads really do eat into the disc.

Do you leave the car stood for a long time?

[Lauren 2259]

In hindsight, probably better if you couldn't free it by lighting up the rears which is harder in an auto, then worth getting something beefy to tow you for a bit to free it off if it happens again. A really wet day after you parked up would stick the pads to the disc. Thing is with a manual, you can be a  lot more brutal, which is sometimes what you need. 

DS2500's are not hard on discs, so don't see why you'd need them skimmed. Just a bit of heavy braking will clean them up. I admit, I just change pads and discs together as they seem to last about the same. My DS2500's still have plenty on them after 40K miles. Discs are okay too. Reckon they'll need changing at around 50K miles.