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16 hours ago, Jay said:

Great! The question is, will it be fitted with a turbo?

I did a YouTube video on this, or rather the state of play with the new generation. 

It seems a rather 50/50 split as to whether people want a turbo or not, I'd love one for the tuning capability personally. 

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Regarding environmental aspects, a turbo won't be very effective. This mainly holds for large engines with 6, 8 or more cylinders. Those can be significantly downsized by chopping off a few buckets, reducing friction, thermal loss and intake loss. A turbo charged Mini is in the same ballpark as the GT86, regarding emission and fuel consumption.

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2 hours ago, Jay said:

Regarding environmental aspects, a turbo won't be very effective. This mainly holds for large engines with 6, 8 or more cylinders. Those can be significantly downsized by chopping off a few buckets, reducing friction, thermal loss and intake loss. A turbo charged Mini is in the same ballpark as the GT86, regarding emission and fuel consumption.

Pretty much everyone is running small turbo engines now. The new Fiesta ST is a 3-cylinder, 1.5 putting out 197bhp - a familiar number... The whole point of a turbo is increasing thermal efficiency, and that holds true for any engine size/cylinder count.

The FA20 in our cars is right on the edge for Euro 6 compliance - it's not just CO2 emissions that regulators restrict. I wouldn't be surprised to see a variant of the Levorg's FB16 being used in the next gen cars.

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That's one cylinder and about 25% CO2 less. It's not easy to compare NA and turbo engines, as their use and characteristics differ a lot. I'm not advocating one or the other concept, but I'm not sure if I'd like to have a 3-cylinder engine... 🤔

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@Jay Not suggesting the GT86 will be a 3 pot, just showing that downsizing works on small engines too.

@Deacon I thought that rumour came through the rubbish Aussie clickbait site whose name escapes me, happy to be corrected if it was a more reliable source though! I would be surprised if they can hit that sort of specific output and meet future emissions regs. It's still 100bhp/litre from a not-very-exotic engine. If the FA20 struggles with Euro 6, there's no reason to think that a 2.4 would be much better.

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1 hour ago, spikyone said:

Pretty much everyone is running small turbo engines now. The new Fiesta ST is a 3-cylinder, 1.5 putting out 197bhp - a familiar number... The whole point of a turbo is increasing thermal efficiency, and that holds true for any engine size/cylinder count.

The FA20 in our cars is right on the edge for Euro 6 compliance - it's not just CO2 emissions that regulators restrict. I wouldn't be surprised to see a variant of the Levorg's FB16 being used in the next gen cars.

@spikyone Fair generalisation but its competitor , Mazda is still squarely into NA petrols and the new SPCCIas an additional option but not for MX5 and have not eliminated NA. Subaru still have NA engines in their Impreza, and XV. The advantage a turbo has is only during traffic light idling where the small displacement engines naturally consume less fuel. As soon as the turbo gets spooling, it all equalises or even gets worse in a turbo application. 

Manufacturers have to meet regulations across their product range not every particular make and model, IIRC.

So i believe it will still be an NA. 

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Will I get banned, when I mention hybrid technology? 😂 My former car was a Prius (for reasons), which I can prove. 😱

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@BRZ-123 The point with Mazda and Subaru's engines is that they aren't making 100bhp/litre. That's why they can meet emissions standards. Putting in an NA FA24 will not give you an easy route to 230-240bhp that will meet 2019 emissions regs.

NA vs turbo is not just about traffic lights. You get more power from the same displacement with a turbo, and a turbo engine has better thermal efficiency so needs less fuel to produce the same power, because less energy is wasted as heat out of the exhaust. Of course, there's an element of how you drive them that affects fuel economy, but that's a separate issue. Take a direct comparison with the 197bhp Fiesta ST - our cars get far worse fuel economy and emit 50% more CO2, before you look at any other emissions. That's mostly down to NA vs turbo.

Every single car a manufacturer sells in Europe has to meet Euro 6. Range average is a separate issue which is solely CO2 related and is a couple of years away. The FA20 in our cars struggles to meet Euro 6, which doesn't limit CO2 at all. Toyota/Subaru had to make changes for the MY16 to make it compliant. There's a good reason that every modern NA car with higher bhp/litre than ours costs £100k+, and why the likes of Ferrari have abandoned them. NA isn't dead, but NA performance engines basically are.

 

None of that is to say the mk2 GT86 will definitely be turbo. But it seems more likely than the 2.4, given the trends in technology and regulations.

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[mention=3272]BRZ-123[/mention] The point with Mazda and Subaru's engines is that they aren't making 100bhp/litre. That's why they can meet emissions standards. Putting in an NA FA24 will not give you an easy route to 230-240bhp that will meet 2019 emissions regs.
NA vs turbo is not just about traffic lights. You get more power from the same displacement with a turbo, and a turbo engine has better thermal efficiency so needs less fuel to produce the same power, because less energy is wasted as heat out of the exhaust. Of course, there's an element of how you drive them that affects fuel economy, but that's a separate issue. Take a direct comparison with the 197bhp Fiesta ST - our cars get far worse fuel economy and emit 50% more CO2, before you look at any other emissions. That's mostly down to NA vs turbo.
Every single car a manufacturer sells in Europe has to meet Euro 6. Range average is a separate issue which is solely CO2 related and is a couple of years away. The FA20 in our cars struggles to meet Euro 6, which doesn't limit CO2 at all. Toyota/Subaru had to make changes for the MY16 to make it compliant. There's a good reason that every modern NA car with higher bhp/litre than ours costs £100k+, and why the likes of Ferrari have abandoned them. NA isn't dead, but NA performance engines basically are.
 
None of that is to say the mk2 GT86 will definitely be turbo. But it seems more likely than the 2.4, given the trends in technology and regulations.
I get what you are trying to say and agree to most of it. Some things are really media propagated and do not work in real life exactly the way you describe. Take fuel economy for example as you mention it is far worse in our cars, not true

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/toyota/gt86-2012
35.4 for the manual GT
Vs 37.4 for the fiesta ST
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/ford/fiesta-st-2018
And this is how real world works though test MPGs will show you what you read of it aka huge difference between Na and turbo whether its WLTP or NEDC. Turbos have to run rich to cool the engine while on boost, otherwise physics does not work of igniting more air fuel in the same confined space and producing more heat inspite of all the cooling you do.
Subaru have the 2.4L engine from the ascent (FA24F) pr the 2.5L from the outback (FB25D) to use and can de turbo it , a bit like the wrx turbo (FA20F) and the brz NA (FA20D) engines. Am sure they will add a GPF ( gasoline particulate filter) like most modern petrol cars now do and a bit akin to DPFs of old and we should be scraping through is my understanding. NA still has a place and this car will benefit from the linearity of throttle response rather than the on off switch of a turbo.
Let's wait and watch what the future has in store for us. Looking forward to it.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk

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Linearity of our throttles is a bit arguable :). There still is torque dip and throttle drive-by-wire mapping in stock ecu tune is non linear (probably to fake at low rpms impression as that of a bigger engine :)).

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Linearity of our throttles is a bit arguable :). There still is torque dip and throttle drive-by-wire mapping in stock ecu tune is non linear (probably to fake at low rpms impression as that of a bigger engine :)).
It is all relative. It is not perfect but is better than turbo lag and then boom comes the power, and a lot of it.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk

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Not perfect, when one babies throttle on ice tracks and/or for balancing weight & grip mid-curve on track. At such occasions i miss extra precision at initial throttle travel.

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I will be gobsmacked if they stick a 2.4 NA lump in it. There will be some that are surprised that the second generation will even exist let alone be fitted with an engine which goes against the entire industry. This new car will have to have something future proof, you might get away with it now but this new gen car will be sold way into the 2020s it's got to have something which will keep the model viable during the biggest change in automotive history. 

Don't forget as of January the new EU fleet wide C02 targets are being phased in. All the manufacturers are facing big penalties for everything over the target. 

 

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1 hour ago, Church said:

Not perfect, when one babies throttle on ice tracks and/or for balancing weight & grip mid-curve on track. At such occasions i miss extra precision at initial throttle travel.

I agree. An overly sensitive 0-10% pedal travel makes driving the '86 more difficult than necessary for gentle driving. I'm fine with the last 20% of the pedal being WOT, but the top of the pedal could be a little smoother.

A lot of the hybrids are getting bigger engines, but they're operating on a different combustion cycle. It seems unlikely they will turbo a 2nd gen '86, given the laser focus on driver involvement, but how to bring the emissions in check? Knock 200kg off the car perhaps?

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Considering my previous 1.5 CR-Z hybrid gave me 43mpg, I am well impressed with the BRZ's 36mpg. That's not bad at all for a 2.0 NA driven with spirit. Don't believe ridiculous hybrid economy numbers, real world driving tends to tame them a lot.

Another possibility for the new 86/BRZ could be a supercharger. Look at the Mini Cooper S, for example. Good performance, economy and throttle response.

Sent from my LG-Q6 using Tapatalk

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48 minutes ago, MartinT said:

Considering my previous 1.5 CR-Z hybrid gave me 43mpg, I am well impressed with the BRZ's 36mpg. That's not bad at all for a 2.0 NA driven with spirit. Don't believe ridiculous hybrid economy numbers, real world driving tends to tame them a lot.

Another possibility for the new 86/BRZ could be a supercharger. Look at the Mini Cooper S, for example. Good performance, economy and throttle response.

Sent from my LG-Q6 using Tapatalk
 

The Mini hasn't been supercharged for several generations now though as supercharging doesn't seem to work well for the emissions / mpg requirements 

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4 hours ago, MartinT said:

Considering my previous 1.5 CR-Z hybrid gave me 43mpg, I am well impressed with the BRZ's 36mpg. That's not bad at all for a 2.0 NA driven with spirit. Don't believe ridiculous hybrid economy numbers, real world driving tends to tame them a lot.

Another possibility for the new 86/BRZ could be a supercharger. Look at the Mini Cooper S, for example. Good performance, economy and throttle response.

Sent from my LG-Q6 using Tapatalk
 

@MartinTI am very curious on the SC Mini but when i went looking , the petrol ones are turbocharged not Supercharged from what i can see as i rarely see OEM fitted superchargers in this part of the world. Was it the older models?

https://www.mini.co.uk/en_GB/home/explore/mini-engine-technology/engines.html#

https://www.parkers.co.uk/mini/hatchback/review/engines/

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@BRZ-123 yeah the early models had Eaton m45 superchargers.

You have parasitic drag from superchargers, limited capability and perhaps cost compared to Turbos which is another aspect as to why they aren't mainstream.

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Yes, apologies, it was the older models of Cooper S.  Nice car, though.

Mercedes make superchargers work.  I know they're in the minority but I suggested a charger to keep the 86/BRZ's reputation for quick responses and drivability, not a strong point of turbos.

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1 hour ago, Varelco said:

Lotus and Jag still use superchargers too. Definitely suites this car.

I'm pretty sure Mazdas new swanky Skyactive X motor has a little air boosting supercharger on it too.

They (Lotus and Jag) do indeed. They inherit this capability due to their old association with Ford and using their american tech. They also have ford's patented windscreen clear tech which i absolutely love for frozen windscreens in winters ( Sorry off topic!)

 

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