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Getting circa -2.5 degrees negative camber at the front?

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What I'm worried about is if there could be any downsides to using eccentric bushes instead of normal ones, just like the potential for issues with the eccentric top mounts.

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Well, i can only theorize that for something to be made eccentric there is less material at one side, less material on other side, so just possibly for it to wear/brake down/whatever quicker .. be it in metallic inserts eccentric drill through, and then overall less dampening material, or in eccentric dampening material, that may reduce resilence against long term abuse/wear. It's pure speculation though, and poly is more resilent then rubber, and everything is compromise, i needed to get that extra camber, and these were only other ways to pillowball camberplates, that i tried, but didn't like due NVH worsening they brought. Yes, non-eccentric bushings everything rest being same may last longer, dampen vibrations better, yes stock bolts probably are stronger then camberbolts .. but i need that camber. And bushing/mount/bolt combo i arrived to, subjectively seems best compromise to get that camber :).

Pedder topmounts for our cars are not that long in market though to tell much about them in long term use, to tell how well they last with big enough assuredness, but i hope they will do the job of more camber but w/o issues of WL's. Whiteline ones were plagued with binding of their bearings imho due multiple reasons, not all related to eccentricity itself. For example stock top spring perch of twins conical center was a bit wider then that of impreza-s, so tended not just rest on inside of bearing bet also on mid & outer ring of bearing IIRC, WL com-c-s also supposedly don't have bearing in rubber at angle, so at higher strut camber angles instead of being perpendicular, they may seen extra side loads, further increasing chance of binding. Most people going for extra camber do so for more optimal alignment for track use, so more load on them. Also imprezas/wrx/sti are heavier cars then twins, so more mass/load may also reduce chance of WL Com-Cs bearing to bind.

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On 10/26/2019 at 12:42 PM, Church said:

Pedder topmounts for our cars are not that long in market though to tell much about them in long term use, to tell how well they last with big enough assuredness, but i hope they will do the job of more camber but w/o issues of WL's. Whiteline ones were plagued with binding of their bearings imho due multiple reasons, not all related to eccentricity itself. For example stock top spring perch of twins conical center was a bit wider then that of impreza-s, so tended not just rest on inside of bearing bet also on mid & outer ring of bearing IIRC, WL com-c-s also supposedly don't have bearing in rubber at angle, so at higher strut camber angles instead of being perpendicular, they may seen extra side loads, further increasing chance of binding. Most people going for extra camber do so for more optimal alignment for track use, so more load on them. Also imprezas/wrx/sti are heavier cars then twins, so more mass/load may also reduce chance of WL Com-Cs bearing to bind.

Hey Church, can I ask how you’re getting on with your Pedders top mounts?

I had mine installed in January this year and have been very happy with them, however one of them is now starting to clunk over bumps after only 800 miles and 2 track days - might have just been unlucky though, and got a bad one.

Cheers

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Hmm, so far no complaints, "just works" :) and no issues to report. For about, hmm, IIRC ~ 5K miles and coincidentally also 2 trackdays. I'm now fighting with other suspension parts problems .. as in it seems that unexpectedly hard to buy bilstein B6, with most sellers inquired turning out restocking with those no sooner then in two months :(

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Thanks Church - sounds like I either got a bad one or a problem with another part of the front suspension (I already checked the endlinks and it’s not that), will give these another chance I guess 😊

For anyone else interested in the Pedders mounts, they have me -0.9 camber on stock ride height.

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To me was more actual (in track use context) total camber i could net. As in, if i could or couldn't get front camber to -3 w/o resorting to install camberplates or not.

BTW, you still have option of powerflex bushings. Imho they might be safer possible issues wise. Those eccentric LCA bushings go in rearward joint, that, if i get it right, mostly moves in just one axis, unlike front LCA bushing, where eg. eccentric whiteline bushings for some fail.

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Thanks Church. I’m actually running -2.2 camber in total camber at the front, -0.9 from the Pedders and -1.3 from my widetrack front LCAs. I was using camber bolts to get to -2.0 before the Pedders, but found that they would slip quite often (after every track day) hence the reason for changing to angled mounts... the clunking is now making me wonder if this was a mistake, but I probably just have a bad mount which should be covered by the Pedders warranty 👍

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Hmm, interesting. Can you post a link, what are those widetrack LCAs?

As for camberbolts, weird. Imho something is off/wrong. They shouldn't slip, normally torqued, they don't for most, if they do, probably there had been some some heavy hit to suspension, that might aswell also bend something. Hmm, maybe you have applied some antiseize grease or alike? (which should increase torque value to provide same level of friction to not slip .. maybe even past camberbolt shearing torque). Well, regarding camberbolts usage i may add two hints i've seen in forums: 1) when adjusting alignment, at end worth to paint line over bolt head & joint, so that one can see, if it has moved or not, and one can easily turn back to orig position, 2) seen DIY ways to ensure for bolts to never slip (though they were mentioned more in context of bolt within larger, slotted strut hole, less about lobed camberbolts) - to glue it. Saw mentions of eg. blue loctite, paint or even fingernail paint :), to apply under washer sides and head of the bolt and under flange of the nut.

Also, can you be more specific on describing that clunking noise? I wonder if it is from topmounts at all. Issues with topmounts noises usually are when their bearing binds, so then when turning wheel lock to lock there might be noises of coil spring "skipping" in spring perch.

But that binding bearing / skipping spring noise is just from turning wheel, not exactly clunking when driving over bumps, as you wrote, so makes me think if topmount is source of that at all?

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Here is a link for the widetrack LCAs (might need Google Translate though!): https://www.cusco.co.jp/products/i/etc-parts/86brz_23.html. They’re not cheap but as I’m running skinny wheels (17x7.0J ET48) it helps to push the wheels out a little without using spacers which I like.

Good idea about painting the bolt heads - I had also thought of that but only after they had been removed from the car 🤦‍♂️ will definitely try that though if I go back to using camber bolts 👍

Not sure why my bolts were slipping, or perhaps that wasn’t actually the case - I just know that my camber can change as much as 0.6 between each alignment (which at one point was between each track day and I was going once a month) and the explanation from the shop - a reputable GT86 specialist - is that this was something that just happens but perhaps (i) this is actually the effect of other suspension components moving, and (ii) loctite / paint etc. on the camber bolts might help reduce this “slippage”.

Thanks for the video - I can’t remember if I’d already watched this one but will check it out - I’m genuinely stumped as to what the noise will be, it’s definitely metallic sounding but I checked for rubbing and there was none... as you say, a bad mount would not just make noises when going over bumps which is definitely the case here (it’s dead silent when steering), will capture a video when I next go for a drive and also check the spring perches in case one of the coils isn’t seated properly.

Failing that I’ll have to take this to my local specialist to diagnose the problem, I need to pay them a visit anyway to install my O2W oil cooler and updated radiator for when track days start again (after the lockdown) 🙂

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Hmm, from looks of those LCAs, they have also adjustment of track .. but doesn't that adjustment not only changes track, but also changes camber? And toe adjusment, doesn't it change both toe & camber? In general, by that painted line over trick over you may check everything that is adjustable in suspension, to see culprit, which had moved, not just camberbolts. Also, what struts you have? Maybe height adjustable? Do adjusting collars stay snug? In general, as many using camberbolts also auto-x or HPDE their cars including going over kerbs, and for most camberbolts stay as they were when tightened, i suspect something else at fault. If for camberbolts themselves - then eg. misused some type of grease which may reduce friction and increase chance of slip.

If it's single clunk over bumps .. hmm, i'd check state of bushings and wheel bearing. Metallic clunk .. especially i'd check state of pillowball bushings, if somewhere are such, and also if some tie/endlink doesn't rub somewhere. For me source of metallic clunk over some bumps was eg. when topmounts where pillowball camberplates :), hence what i wished to fix by reverting to rubber topmounts but retaining extra camber. Seen cases in forums of eg. some aftermarket suspension/coilovers/swaybars combo, where with specific endlink length it rubbed when that corner was bottomed out.

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Yep the widetrack LCAs definitely add camber, as mentioned in my other post I was able to get -1.3 using those alone and no camber bolts / top mounts 🙂

Actually that’s given me an idea to check the adjustment screw on the arms, which could be the source of the noise if loose... and thank you for mentioning wheel bearings, which I suppose could also be the culprit as my car is relatively high mileage 100k miles / 160,000 km, has been running spacers (only 10mm though) and is tracked regularly so that could be it as well.

I don’t think it’s endlinks rubbing since I’m running stock type struts (TRD rally suspension) and stock ride height, the endlinks are the solid Perrin urethane ones (i.e. there are no ball joints) which I fitted 2 weeks ago as my old links were worn anyway. The noise was there before and hasn’t changed since I changed the endlinks so I don’t think it’s related. I guess it’s one for my specialist to look at, hoping it’s not the LCA bushes as I’m not sure how easily one can get replacements from Cusco, and they probably won’t be cheap either 😕

 

 

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Wheel bearings usually have different types of noise though. For example humming when under load such as when cornering fast with car leaning on that wheel heavier.

Hmm, one thing is contstruction design/"type", other .. are all dimensions such as endlink attachment points/place same as stock? IIRC TRD rally suspension was 10-15mm higher and of different spring & damping rates, and of green color :), that's about all i know about them. But are attachment points placed same? Is shock travel same and thus endlinks travel about same? Check wheel arches, suspension arms and so on, if somewhere there aren't some rubbing marks. It might be missed if car is steady for maintenance, or one at most lightly can swing it, when something like that happens only during specific stage of driving (such as case above mentioned for bearings), eg. when during bump it gets fully compressed. Hmm, fully compressed .. btw, how are things with bumpstops on those struts?

Sometimes source of noise might be from unexpected source and take long time to debug (especially if it was after several changes/mods done at same time and especially if it propagated after longer time). For example for me not that long ago such noise was braided brake line for rear right wheel. Lot of time was lost trying to find where/what in suspension during it's movement over bumps or when one swinged car produced noises .. it was brake line that moved around rubbing in bracket, that producing noise during compression of rear suspension on bumps. 3hours lost on test drives, checking just about anything in rear suspension, on debugging that stupid noise actual source :(

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Noise issue resolved... it wasn’t anything to do with the Pedders mounts in the end, so as far as I’m concerned they are still a good product - Church I’ll PM you separately to avoid clogging up this thread (about getting camber rather than noise) 👍

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Well, then it just ups the statistic, that these mounts unlike whiteline com-c so far work fine for most and can be considered for those that wish more camber w/o compromising NVH.

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On 5/17/2020 at 2:18 PM, 3782mc said:

Noise issue resolved... it wasn’t anything to do with the Pedders mounts in the end, so as far as I’m concerned they are still a good product - Church I’ll PM you separately to avoid clogging up this thread (about getting camber rather than noise) 👍

 

On 5/17/2020 at 2:34 PM, Church said:

Well, then it just ups the statistic, that these mounts unlike whiteline com-c so far work fine for most and can be considered for those that wish more camber w/o compromising NVH.

Thread resurection time

 

Hi guys, can I ask, regarding the Pedders top mounts did you find you got roughly equal side to side Neg camber numbers with them or did you have to dial in the difference with the camber bolts/ LCA bushings?

 

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Mostly equal change wise. As in there were some differences even with stock everything, so these won't "fix" or make it worse. And i have other parts changing geometry (eg. i had powerflex eccentric bushings and two camberbolt sets too) prior install of these mounts, and difference that needed to be adjusted.

Just get in addition to topmounts at least single camberbolt set. It's relatively cheap, even more common and quicker to get, and in addition to allow precise dialing of even alignment also up adjustment range, whereas mentioned pedder topmounts just add fixed amount of camber. As stock, our cars have only toe adjustment in front and rear. And as installing them asks for undoing several screws/mounts, and also camber changes are linked with toe changes, alignment after install of these topmounts is highly advised anyway.

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1 hour ago, Church said:

Mostly equal change wise. As in there were some differences even with stock everything, so these won't "fix" or make it worse. And i have other parts changing geometry (eg. i had powerflex eccentric bushings and two camberbolt sets too) prior install of these mounts, and difference that needed to be adjusted.

Just get in addition to topmounts at least single camberbolt set. It's relatively cheap, even more common and quicker to get, and in addition to allow precise dialing of even alignment also up adjustment range, whereas mentioned pedder topmounts just add fixed amount of camber. As stock, our cars have only toe adjustment in front and rear. And as installing them asks for undoing several screws/mounts, and also camber changes are linked with toe changes, alignment after install of these topmounts is highly advised anyway.

Cheers Church

Reason I am asking is I would only have adjustment from the Powerflex eccentric bushings as my Ohlins struts don’t take camber bolts🙄.  Like you I was disappointed with the noise exhibited by pillow ball top mounts. I wouldn't have an issue if it spent more time on the track than the road, but it doesn’t at present. Even so I am looking for a little neg camber on the front.  Not looking for big numbers but would like at least 1.5 Neg camber as I enjoyed how the car behaves over the standard zero camber setting.

From what you say it sounds like that could be achievable with just the Pedders top mounts and the Powerflex LCA bushes

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Adjusting with those bushings is more cumbersome. I have them in "maxed out" position and never touched since, doing adjustment with camberbolts (previously on stock struts and now on bilstein B6 ones). As for Ohlins struts .. why they don't take camber bolts? They have slotted mount holes on strut? Then use those slots for adjustment. Or reuse in larger top hole "crashbolts" like those in smaller lower hole. Or they need some nonstandard sized, smaller bolts, so that generic lobed camberbolts for twins won't fit?

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14 hours ago, Church said:

Adjusting with those bushings is more cumbersome. I have them in "maxed out" position and never touched since, doing adjustment with camberbolts (previously on stock struts and now on bilstein B6 ones). As for Ohlins struts .. why they don't take camber bolts? They have slotted mount holes on strut? Then use those slots for adjustment. Or reuse in larger top hole "crashbolts" like those in smaller lower hole. Or they need some nonstandard sized, smaller bolts, so that generic lobed camberbolts for twins won't fit?

Unfortunately, the design of the Ohlins leg has cut out recesses around the holes which makes fitting existing designed camber bolts difficult and unsafe

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Quick question: what is the more stable state with camber bolts: maximum camber or minimum camber? I assume from the stable state the risk of them starting to turn is minimal.

Also, if left and right are not equal is it better to rotate one bolt to make them equal or just max them both out? in that case, can the steering wheel be corrected if it is off center?

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