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sam534

Oil and coolant temps

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Can someone tell me the recommended cap for oil and coolant temps for our engines, I. E. On track at what level should I ease off and head to cool down (if it gets to that point)?

 

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Coolant seems to stay reasonable but oil gets very hot, I have seen 129° during a track session. My advice would be fit an oil cooler if you do a lot of track days, TD do a good kit at sensible money.

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Coolant seems to stay reasonable but oil gets very hot, I have seen 129° during a track session. My advice would be fit an oil cooler if you do a lot of track days, TD do a good kit at sensible money.
Just starting up so want to see how it goes before buying more kit. So would you say in the 120's time to take a break?

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On previous cars at 110 I would take a break, tge FA20 appears to run hot but 120 is still high. Having said that not heard of problems yet, driver discretion advised.

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Abbey added a custom map to mine that starts reducing power at 130 degrees to give you some warning that it's best to back off if you haven't been paying attention.

I usually tend to take a break if I notice it reaching 125.

120 is a very normal track temperature for an FA20.

 

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57 minutes ago, KevinA said:

My advice would be fit an oil cooler if you do a lot of track days, TD do a good kit at sensible money.

This. Going off the Torque app's figures, the oil can cool quickly but heat back up just as quick. Even in November I was struggling to do more than 2 hot laps and having the oil below 125c.

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This. Going off the Torque app's figures, the oil can cool quickly but heat back up just as quick. Even in November I was struggling to do more than 2 hot laps and having the oil below 125c.
Great, all good information, I'll keep an eye on the temps for my first couple if track days, oil cooler is added to the list.

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17 minutes ago, KevinA said:

I see up to 120 on a sprint lap from only warmed up oil, so will be fitting an oil cooler when I'm next at TD.

I've had one sat under my table for a year :wacko: need to get a high temp thermostat and decide what to do about the airbox getting in the way a little

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I've had one sat under my table for a year :wacko: need to get a high temp thermostat and decide what to do about the airbox getting in the way a little
Have you an idea on the fitting then mate? What's the issue exactly?

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4 minutes ago, sam534 said:

Have you an idea on the fitting then mate? What's the issue exactly?

Depends on the cooler you get, but the one I have, the connectors will end up touching the back of the airbox, @Deacon will be able to give more detail and/or a picture as he's already had his fitted

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Modern decent oil will protect better and last longer at higher temps than older oils. The issue is that with high temps you see the oil pressures drop and that is really more key than a temperature limit. Standard OW20 oils will likely be thinner at higher temps than a thicker oil, so a 5W30 oil would give you better pressures under extended running.

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Depends on the cooler you get, but the one I have, the connectors will end up touching the back of the airbox, [mention=277]Deacon[/mention] will be able to give more detail and/or a picture as he's already had his fitted
Can it be mounted the other way round?

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Modern decent oil will protect better and last longer at higher temps than older oils. The issue is that with high temps you see the oil pressures drop and that is really more key than a temperature limit. Standard OW20 oils will likely be thinner at higher temps than a thicker oil, so a 5W30 oil would give you better pressures under extended running.
Indeed, I am guessing the other thing to this is the oil pump will have to work a little harder with a greater viscosity of oil, when the temps are lower for daily driving. I'm sure that isn't much of an issue though.

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2 hours ago, sam534 said:

Can it be mounted the other way round?

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Sadly not. Here's a picture of the problem. 

Oil cooler pipes need the stock airbox manipulating to clear:-

 

IMG_20180124_153658.thumb.jpg.9b7da48c7f031ceb1ab40b640ce47ada.jpg

There's no room to mount the sandwich plate the other way due to the hard lines. 

IMG_20180124_153705.thumb.jpg.f82bb523408bd4fdb6984ad6d909ced2.jpg

You may be able to get more 'angled' pieces going into the sandwich plate (I'm not sure on this) or HKS/Greddy etc do a sandwich plate where the fixings go straight up vertically rather than horizontally which would also give the necessary clearance. 

I'm swapping to an induction kit which will get rid of the problem (the hks oil cap on mine also makes it slightly worse than the plastic oem cap). 

I had a gauge fitted giving me oil temps and pressure. The oil temp is tapped into the sump and pressure is read from the block. 

Before fitting the cooler I was seeing temps getting into the mid 120's within three flying laps at Bedford so having to do a cool down lap and give it a 20 min break before going back out again. 

Post cooler temps didn't get much above about 115 and my sessions were only curtailed by my knackeredness! 

As Knightyrider said the killer is the pressure drop at higher temps. 

I'm currently running 0w30 and even just driving home with a temp of about 83 the pressure drops to low teens at idle. If you're tracking a bit I'd definitely get an oil cooler sorted. Seeing the pressure drops (plummet) was enough to convince me! 

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Sadly not. Here's a picture of the problem. 
Oil cooler pipes need the stock airbox manipulating to clear:-
 
IMG_20180124_153658.thumb.jpg.9b7da48c7f031ceb1ab40b640ce47ada.jpg
There's no room to mount the sandwich plate the other way due to the hard lines. 
IMG_20180124_153705.thumb.jpg.f82bb523408bd4fdb6984ad6d909ced2.jpg
You may be able to get more 'angled' pieces going into the sandwich plate (I'm not sure on this) or HKS/Greddy etc do a sandwich plate where the fixings go straight up vertically rather than horizontally which would also give the necessary clearance. 
I'm swapping to an induction kit which will get rid of the problem (the hks oil cap on mine also makes it slightly worse than the plastic oem cap). 
I had a gauge fitted giving me oil temps and pressure. The oil temp is tapped into the sump and pressure is read from the block. 
Before fitting the cooler I was seeing temps getting into the mid 120's within three flying laps at Bedford so having to do a cool down lap and give it a 20 min break before going back out again. 
Post cooler temps didn't get much above about 115 and my sessions were only curtailed by my knackeredness! 
As Knightyrider said the killer is the pressure drop at higher temps. 
I'm currently running 0w30 and even just driving home with a temp of about 83 the pressure drops to low teens at idle. If you're tracking a bit I'd definitely get an oil cooler sorted. Seeing the pressure drops (plummet) was enough to convince me! 
Thanks deacon, I was curious to your problem, a number of things adding up by the looks of it. Looks like different fittings may work.... Bit of a bad design to be honest!

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4 minutes ago, sam534 said:

Thanks deacon, I was curious to your problem, a number of things adding up by the looks of it. Looks like different fittings may work.... Bit of a bad design to be honest!

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The individual parts in the Hel kit are very good. The package they put together is shite! They clearly hadn't tried it properly on a car before its release and when I looked last they don't list it anymore. Shame because as I said the parts are good (mocal, setrab, etc) 

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Apart from how hot oil can get, there is also such thing as recommended working temps. If too cold, imho oil might also not work properly. So i guess it's worth to get something with thermostat, which will decide if oil needs cooled more or not. I'd think that 110C might be normal temps, oil doesn't need to be cooler then eg. water boiling temps. But if redlined/used heavy on track,, or sometimes even if idling in standstill traffic on some hot summer day, oil may get too hot, and not just reducing pressure, but also it can degrade much quicker overheated, requiring change more often. Car can be tracked everything stock, but i'd change oil then very often, eg. every few thousand track miles, not doing it just when it's due scheduled regular maintenance.

Some forester style L2O coolers might be sufficient for light track use, but if one tracks often, i guess normal external oil A2O rad might be mod worth to consider, to ensure proper oiling and longetivity of engine.

P.S. Regarding oiling our cars may have some other shortcomings too, eg. if running on high-grip tires and or lot of aero downforce getting oil starving in long high G turns at least without some sump mods to increase oil capacity or some means to better direct where it goes when with side-Gs.

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Apart from how hot oil can get, there is also such thing as recommended working temps. If too cold, imho oil might also not work properly. So i guess it's worth to get something with thermostat, which will decide if oil needs cooled more or not. I'd think that 110C might be normal temps, oil doesn't need to be cooler then eg. water boiling temps. But if redlined/used heavy on track,, or sometimes even if idling in standstill traffic on some hot summer day, oil may get too hot, and not just reducing pressure, but also it can degrade much quicker overheated, requiring change more often. Car can be tracked everything stock, but i'd change oil then very often, eg. every few thousand track miles, not doing it just when it's due scheduled regular maintenance.
Some forester style L2O coolers might be sufficient for light track use, but if one tracks often, i guess normal external oil A2O rad might be mod worth to consider, to ensure proper oiling and longetivity of engine.
P.S. Regarding oiling our cars may have some other shortcomings too, eg. if running on high-grip tires and or lot of aero downforce getting oil starving in long high G turns at least without some sump mods to increase oil capacity or some means to better direct where it goes when with side-Gs.
Feel I am all clued up on oil and track now! Oh for sure I think if I do 2 track days this spring/summer I'll change the oil after the second and if I have temperature issues then I'll install an oil cooler at the same time.

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sam534: btw, what i myself am considering from future mods, is jackson racing kit with main rad that has integrated oil rad. Not sure if it can be used ok on RHD. I know it has some clearance issues with MY2017 revised airbox. Still liking idea of more effective heat dissipation vs stacked rads with oil rad in front of main, more compactness, and that it not just cools oil, it can also heat it up sooner from water (sooner heating up) running near IIRC. Expensive kit though :(

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sam534: btw, what i myself am considering from future mods, is jackson racing kit with main rad that has integrated oil rad. Not sure if it can be used ok on RHD. I know it has some clearance issues with MY2017 revised airbox. Still liking idea of more effective heat dissipation vs stacked rads with oil rad in front of main, more compactness, and that it not just cools oil, it can also heat it up sooner from water (sooner heating up) running near IIRC. Expensive kit though
Looks like a well designed piece of kit.

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1 hour ago, sam534 said:

Feel I am all clued up on oil and track now! Oh for sure I think if I do 2 track days this spring/summer I'll change the oil after the second and if I have temperature issues then I'll install an oil cooler at the same time.

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I've done 110k miles and five years of track days and sprinting. I have seen oil temps upto 129C. It does weirdly seem to stabilise a bit at those temps. Mind you sprinting is irrelevant as you won't get the temps hot enough over one lap. On track days I only run for 10 minutes or so at at time. Anymore and my concentration is going anyway, but doing shorter stints means the oil temps don't get that high. I've yet to fit an oil cooler. I think it's a good idea, but really you will only need it if you are doing long sessions on track. 

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9 hours ago, Church said:

Lauren: and how temps are affected if forced induction is installed?

I don't know, but the OP doesn't seem to have FI and neither do I, so I didn't think it was relevant. Also a turbo using the same oil supply would likely have more of an effect on oil temperature than a supercharger that does not, but that's another discussion surely?

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