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Lauren

Brake upgrades - discs/pads?

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After last Friday's trackday at Oulton, the car was brilliant except for the brakes. I'm not a hard braker and I'm smooth, but I always run out of brakes after three laps or so. I think it's because I carry a lot of speed into the braking zone and I'm on the brakes right up to the Apex. They tend to rumble and obviously they just seem to fade away. I'm running stock discs, fluid and Project Mu HC800 pads. The pads are a bit better than stock, but the problem always remains it seems. 

I do think that given they've been on since March they are probably getting a bit tired with a season of sprinting two track days and 15K miles under them. The pads themselves give really good feel but create an insane amount of dust that has ruined the powdercoat on my wheels. My discs are getting a little thin and such things do not help of course. 

I've been tinkering with a BBK, but can I really justify it just for track days really? Anything good seems to be about £2K which is a lot to spend just for being mega on the track. In road driving the brakes are perfectly fine. 

I'm considering going the PFC front and EBC yellow rears like Kev uses, but I'm wondering if there are any  better discs than OEM out there and if alloy bells reap any real benefits? I guess I'm trying to find a halfway house between upgrading the pads and discs without resorting to the huge expense of a BBK. 

There is the STI Brembo setup, but I wonder what the cost will be new and if it's available? 

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46 minutes ago, Lauren said:

After last Friday's trackday at Oulton, the car was brilliant except for the brakes. I'm not a hard braker and I'm smooth, but I always run out of brakes after three laps or so. I think it's because I carry a lot of speed into the braking zone and I'm on the brakes right up to the Apex. They tend to rumble and obviously they just seem to fade away. I'm running stock discs, fluid and Project Mu HC800 pads. The pads are a bit better than stock, but the problem always remains it seems. 

I do think that given they've been on since March they are probably getting a bit tired with a season of sprinting two track days and 15K miles under them. The pads themselves give really good feel but create an insane amount of dust that has ruined the powdercoat on my wheels. My discs are getting a little thin and such things do not help of course. 

I've been tinkering with a BBK, but can I really justify it just for track days really? Anything good seems to be about £2K which is a lot to spend just for being mega on the track. In road driving the brakes are perfectly fine. 

I'm considering going the PFC front and EBC yellow rears like Kev uses, but I'm wondering if there are any  better discs than OEM out there and if alloy bells reap any real benefits? I guess I'm trying to find a halfway house between upgrading the pads and discs without resorting to the huge expense of a BBK. 

There is the STI Brembo setup, but I wonder what the cost will be new and if it's available? 

The sti brembo set up changes the brake balance. You'd be better off with the AP kit like @will300 has. Using the Ryland discs that comes out around £1600 if I remember correctly. 

Looking on the 86 track groups the perceived wisdom is that there doesn't appear to be any benefit to any different types of disc over oem or Stoptech centric blanks. 

Would it be worth considering a track pad (like the clubracers) and just swapping them in for track work while running 'normal' pads like the pfc's for street use?

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Ive got some part worn Carbotech XP8 pads front and rear in my spares collection im going to be selling, I found these coupled with good quality/fresh brake fluid more than man enough for the Cosworth charged car on track :D 

Let me know if any interest I will measure how much life and work out price, I know rears are hardly worn and front probably 20% used from memory but will check.

 

Ian

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DBA discs have improved cooling vanes, but are expensive. However as an optimum "OEM" setup I'd look into them. As Kev runs them, there's added weight behind that suggestion over and above what I've read. Stoptech Centric discs apparently are somewhere between the OEM and DBA but cannot confirm.

I would also look into running a dual pad setup and then no compromise on track and then you can run more aggressive compounds.

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KevinA: actually many BBKs are lighter then stock. And while they often mention larger thermal capacity .. not just calipers, often disks are lighter then stock aswell! Partially due most of them being two-piece with lighter alu center hub, but even so lot of that extra thermal capacity often comes from improved design that cools off better. Better vane configuration, larger size ..

And lot of weight can be saved if rear brakes are replaced with ones w/o parking brake drum. Unfortunately it will also make car not street legal.

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2 hours ago, KevinA said:

I have the DBA discs and the pad combo you mentioned, ducting is a good idea also. BBK is very expensive and most likely adds weight too.

As Church says, BBK are typically lighter; you can save ~10lb per front wheel swapping to AP racing brakes - largely from the lighter two part disc, but also because the calipers are a little lighter than the cast OEM calipers. Not a bad saving off the unsprung weight really - it's a lot more than a decent set of forged wheels saves for instance!

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1 hour ago, thetyrant said:

Ive got some part worn Carbotech XP8 pads front and rear in my spares collection im going to be selling, I found these coupled with good quality/fresh brake fluid more than man enough for the Cosworth charged car on track :D 

Let me know if any interest I will measure how much life and work out price, I know rears are hardly worn and front probably 20% used from memory but will check.

 

Ian

How much do they squeak on a daily drive as I have heard carbotechs like to.

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36 minutes ago, Rich said:

As Church says, BBK are typically lighter; you can save ~10lb per front wheel swapping to AP racing brakes - largely from the lighter two part disc, but also because the calipers are a little lighter than the cast OEM calipers. Not a bad saving off the unsprung weight really - it's a lot more than a decent set of forged wheels saves for instance!

That' AP but most kits are heavier, and AP is very costly.

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33 minutes ago, alucardo said:

How much do they squeak on a daily drive as I have heard carbotechs like to.

Well they are track pads really and while from a performance point of view they can be used on road there is always a downside to track capable performance, in this case yes they can get a bit squeaky if not given a regular workout and are quite dusty,  usually on my cars  i leave them in for road use but i found on my 86 most of road use was gentle with very little braking so they got a bit squeaky and hence swapped them in and out between track outings which is simple to do thankfully, i think these have done 1 trackday and 3 sprints so not much use really :)

I

 

 

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The HC800 are about as good as they get before you go to proper racepad territory which I wouldn't recommend for the road. 

Id try some ducting if you dont want to spend money in a bbk. Bare in mind you'll save weight with any decent two piece disc and aluminium caliper and consumables will last a lot longer which recovers some if not all of the cost. 

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11 minutes ago, Ade said:

The HC800 are about as good as they get before you go to proper racepad territory which I wouldn't recommend for the road. 

Id try some ducting if you dont want to spend money in a bbk. Bare in mind you'll save weight with any decent two piece disc and aluminium caliper and consumables will last a lot longer which recovers some if not all of the cost. 

This is why I have not bothered with looking at disks and pads combination. If you plan to keep the car and do multiple tracks a year it makes sense to go BBK as for one you get more time on track and you spend less money overall. Just the upfront cost seems high but the overall investment is good.

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Just now, alucardo said:

This is why I have not bothered with looking at disks and pads combination. If you plan to keep the car and do multiple tracks a year it makes sense to go BBK as for one you get more time on track and you spend less money overall. Just the upfront cost seems high but the overall investment is good.

I treat the BBK like fit and forget. Hot OEM brakes with pads like the HC800 or hotter will cause the caliper seals to leak eventually. One of my pistons was leaking when I took them off. Also the dust boots crack and fall apart leaving them open to salt ingress. 

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18 minutes ago, Cerastes said:

Didn't Tuning developments have a cooling solution for the stock brakes?

Anyone tried it yet?

I have the similar but slightly less well fitting Porsche GT3 brake ducts. I'm not sure if it makes a huge difference to brake fade TBH - I didn't notice much last time I was out, but I don't get a lot of fade anyway.

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21 minutes ago, alucardo said:

I have the gt3 brake ducts aswell but did not help 2500's on stock disks after 4 15-20 minute sessions.

DS2500's are a bit crap though 🤷‍♂️

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No argument from me. Had them also fade in the Alps. Though tbh Alps are tougher than most tracks especially on the descent.
Its why I looked into BBK's with good advice from people like @ade and @will300 . I would have bought some myself but some tasty suspension came up. Ultimately @Lauren I think a BBK is the best choice over disk and pads having seen your usage.

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9 hours ago, Minion said:

http://www.reyland.co.uk/subaru-impreza/

Cheapest option for Ap's about with some good reviews

That's actually quite a lot cheaper than I thought it would be. Very tempting indeed. The four pots will fit under 17" wheels too. 

I notice it comes with DS2500, which a lot don't seem to like. Are they going to be up to the job? I guess a much bigger contact patch and bigger discs will help. 

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That's actually quite a lot cheaper than I thought it would be. Very tempting indeed. The four pots will fit under 17" wheels too. 
I notice it comes with DS2500, which a lot don't seem to like. Are they going to be up to the job? I guess a much bigger contact patch and bigger discs will help. 
Bare in mind the cheaper versions use the reyland disc with straight vanes whereas AP disc have curved vanes which they claim improves cooling by 30%.

The extra cooling capacity comes from the larger surface area and higher airflow throug the vanes.

Its the same pad shape as the old cp5200 which is oe fitment to a few tvrs, aston martins ect and countless bbks. So pads arnt expensove at all.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

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