Heel/Toe Advise

[Ch1L5t3R 9]

Hey all o/

 

So i have a quick question, until i put in some research i had no clue about the heel/toe technique for downshifting under heavy breaking to rev match. My rev matching is fine when downshifting when not breaking, but i just wanted to clarify something.

So since doing some research (mostly youtube) on how to heel/toe i have been out quite a lot in my spare time just driving around so i can practice. The issue i'm having is the stock pedals have it so the brake is so much further up than the accelerator when idle. So the issue is, unless i am practically doing an emergency stop, i find it extremely difficult to reach and give a quick press of the accelerator whilst braking with my toe.
 

Is this because of the stock pedals? and can you adjust/replace them so they are both nearer to the same lateral level whilst idle. Or is it that i just need to practice more and more and maybe wear clown shoes or shoes with a massive heel xD

 

Thanks in advance for any tips   

[Deacon 1357]

I've just fitted this which seems to help quite a bit:-

 

 

Cusco extended accelerator pedal

[Ch1L5t3R 9]

6 minutes ago, Deacon said:

I've just fitted this which seems to help quite a bit:-

 

 

Cusco extended accelerator pedal

Yeah that would be perfect, just to bring that accelerator up to the same level. How much did that cost if i may ask? and i presume the installation is just a few bolts and pretty easy?

*edit* - i just googled it. For 38 quid that will help a lot. I'll get one ordered and get it on  obviously i still need hours and hours more practice but this will help a lot thanks!

Edited October 15, 2017 by Ch1L5t3R
I checked myself

[Deacon 1357]

9 minutes ago, Ch1L5t3R said:

Yeah that would be perfect, just to bring that accelerator up to the same level. How much did that cost if i may ask? and i presume the installation is just a few bolts and pretty easy?

It doesn't actually raise the pedal just brings it closer making it easier to roll your foot over. You can get pedal raisers but I've heard mixed reviews. Installation is pretty easy. They're about £40.

[Lauren 2259]

You can certainly use the pedal extender if you are new to heel and toeing. However with practice and experience, I feel that the GT86 with the stock pedals is about the easiest car to heel and toe that there is. But, I have been doing it endlessly for over 15 years now. 

The key is to do it absolutely all the time and learn how to do it even when you are not braking hard, that's where the finesse comes in, which is what it's all about really. 

Here's an article I wrote about it, back in 2003: 

http://www.mr2.net/trackdayqueen/heelandtoe.htm

 

 

[Deacon 1357]

9 minutes ago, Lauren said:

You can certainly use the pedal extender if you are new to heel and toeing. However with practice and experience, I feel that the GT86 with the stock pedals is about the easiest car to heel and toe that there is. But, I have been doing it endlessly for over 15 years now. 

The key is to do it absolutely all the time and learn how to do it even when you are not braking hard, that's where the finesse comes in, which is what it's all about really. 

Here's an article I wrote about it, back in 2003: 

http://www.mr2.net/trackdayqueen/heelandtoe.htm

 

 

Being new or experienced makes no difference to your ankle extension. Some people just can't turn their ankles enough to work with the stock pedal set up.

[Ch1L5t3R 9]

37 minutes ago, Deacon said:

It doesn't actually raise the pedal just brings it closer making it easier to roll your foot over. You can get pedal raisers but I've heard mixed reviews. Installation is pretty easy. They're about £40.

Yeah, in fairness i can reach it, but then not enough to actually compress the pedal. So even just the few MM extra this gives will help, plus i presume this is also slightly wider at the bottom than the stock pedal? this would also help  

 

36 minutes ago, Lauren said:

You can certainly use the pedal extender if you are new to heel and toeing. However with practice and experience, I feel that the GT86 with the stock pedals is about the easiest car to heel and toe that there is. But, I have been doing it endlessly for over 15 years now. 

The key is to do it absolutely all the time and learn how to do it even when you are not braking hard, that's where the finesse comes in, which is what it's all about really. 

Here's an article I wrote about it, back in 2003: 

http://www.mr2.net/trackdayqueen/heelandtoe.htm

 

 

Cheers lauren  Yeah i appreciate it all comes down to practice practice practice which i will keep doing on my daily commuting  Cheers for the link!

[Church 209]

Lauren: twins stock easiest for H&T? I wonder with what shape/size of feet :/. Pedals were spaced too far to tap with side of feet, and accel pedal too close to mid-tunnel wall, so my heel always scraped there and had to be turned very awkwardly & to imho too great extent. Also to my taste imho accel pedal would be better off slightly higher, as it was somewhat in place only during complete brake pedal press.

I had both different shaped pedal (neoplot's .. that's a bit stock alike, similar to one our cars had at prototype phase, longer and with angle at lower part) and pedal spacer and after trying out both went for spacer (that moves gas pedal closer to brake, further from tunnel wall, puts it higher and closer to driver). Now i find it easy to H&T whenever i want, both on track with heavy brake use, and both on street when i sometimes do that during downshifts for training. No too extensive leg turning & interfering with steering wheel either, and sidewall also spaced enough to not scrape it.

One note though, mine is LHD, no clue how things are with pedal side clearance for RHD.

[Lauren 2259]

6 hours ago, Deacon said:

Being new or experienced makes no difference to your ankle extension. Some people just can't turn their ankles enough to work with the stock pedal set up.

Experience makes you better and more adaptable when it comes to heel and toeing. I can do it in Mark's Yaris for example which is diabolical for heel and toeing. You don't have to turn your ankle that much in a GT86, it's far more about technique. When I started heel and toeing I got a pedal extender, to make it easier as I was struggling. That was in a MK1 MR2.  There is nothing wrong in doing that. Nowadays I just don't need it. My ankle extension is the same as it was then. 

[Lauren 2259]

5 hours ago, Church said:

Lauren: twins stock easiest for H&T? I wonder with what shape/size of feet :/. Pedals were spaced too far to tap with side of feet, and accel pedal too close to mid-tunnel wall, so my heel always scraped there and had to be turned very awkwardly & to imho too great extent. Also to my taste imho accel pedal would be better off slightly higher, as it was somewhat in place only during complete brake pedal press.

I had both different shaped pedal (neoplot's .. that's a bit stock alike, similar to one our cars had at prototype phase, longer and with angle at lower part) and pedal spacer and after trying out both went for spacer (that moves gas pedal closer to brake, further from tunnel wall, puts it higher and closer to driver). Now i find it easy to H&T whenever i want, both on track with heavy brake use, and both on street when i sometimes do that during downshifts for training. No too extensive leg turning & interfering with steering wheel either, and sidewall also spaced enough to not scrape it.

One note though, mine is LHD, no clue how things are with pedal side clearance for RHD.

Yes, you have the pain of LHD. RHD is better in this respect as there's more room. I have size 6 feet. Probably smaller than most of the guys on here. I also only drive in either driving shoes, really thin soled boots or barefoot. I don't ever really drive in anything that is not ideal. Like you say, the more you practice the better you get. I have driving Mark's car managed to heel and toe in walking boots, more for the challenge of doing it than anything else! But if you just do it simply all the time on the road, it makes a huge diference to how competent you are and finessing it when you are not braking hard, just helps you practice the technique more. 

[nerdstrike 186]

For the record, I found heel-toe easier on the RX8 than this car. I feel the OP's position, in that it seems you have to be applying some brake pedal travel before it becomes reasonable.

Nevertheless, I am inspired to work at it in my morning commute!

[Deacon 1357]

13 minutes ago, Lauren said:

Experience makes you better and more adaptable when it comes to heel and toeing. I can do it in Mark's Yaris for example which is diabolical for heel and toeing. You don't have to turn your ankle that much in a GT86, it's far more about technique. When I started heel and toeing I got a pedal extender, to make it easier as I was struggling. That was in a MK1 MR2.  There is nothing wrong in doing that. Nowadays I just don't need it. My ankle extension is the same as it was then. 

And the point is it may be ok for YOU but not for someone else. Irrespective of experience.

[TTR 509]

Bucket seat made an absolutely ENORMOUS difference to how easy it was for me to heel and toe in the 86. The BRZ feels rather alien in comparison, I could do with being shorter 

[Bfranklyn86 52]

Try just using less of your right foot for the brake pedal - almost just your right big toe (but safely obviously).

Then there is enough foot to reach across to the accelerator.

[McDude 40]

Safety-wise you should always use the ball of your foot on the brake pedal. Don't be tempted to use your little toe to blip the acc pedal because you risk pressing the acc pedal when you don't want to under heavy braking or even worse your foot slipping off the brake. I don't agree with the big toe advice, this isn't the safest way to brake.

The action is like stubbing out a cigarette (I don't smoke, but most people get the idea) you are then blipping with your heel, well probably the side of your foot depending how big your feet are.

Personally I think the pedal set up is perfect for heel/toe but if you are new to it, it will take time to practice. If it was easy, we'd all be doing it all the time, but it's not really all that difficult either.

[Lucas 244]

@Ch1L5t3R a few people have the extension from us, including Deacon.

They are currently out of stock, but I've ordered some, because they sell really fast. They will be coming from Japan at the beginning of November.

Current price is £40.85 inc. Next Day Delivery

https://www.part-box.com/965766a-cusco-sport-pedal-toyota-gt86-subaru-brz?search=965766A&description=true

[Minion 132]

26 minutes ago, Lucas@PartBox said:

@Ch1L5t3R a few people have the extension from us, including Deacon.

They are currently out of stock, but I've ordered some, because they sell really fast. They will be coming from Japan at the beginning of November.

Current price is £40.85 inc. Next Day Delivery

https://www.part-box.com/965766a-cusco-sport-pedal-toyota-gt86-subaru-brz?search=965766A&description=true

I got one of these from Lucas and they are very very good, I am also a novice but have advanced massively since I got this pedal. 100% worth it even just for the confidence boost!

[SimonB95 33]

2 hours ago, Minion said:

I got one of these from Lucas and they are very very good, I am also a novice but have advanced massively since I got this pedal. 100% worth it even just for the confidence boost!

I've just installed mine today and drove the car with it about an hour ago. The feel is a lot better than I was expecting. Definitely feels a lot more natural when heel/toe downshifting. Would definitely recommend