Winter Tyres

[S18 RSG 429]

1 minute ago, Deacon said:

An issue seems to be in winter tyre choice. Just like any tyres if you put bad ones on you're not going to have a great experience . 

I'm a big fan of the Nokian WRA3 and now the WRA4's as they're designed for the sort of winters we have in the UK - cold, wet, frost, ice and slush with very occasional rain. They're also classed as an ultra high performance winter tyre. A lot of manufactures winter tyres are biased to snow which isn't that useful in the UK and a lot of them don't have an ultra high performance winter equivalent (Yokohama being one) so putting their winter tyres on would be the equivalent of putting a lower grade summer tyre on and obviously the poorer performance that would go with that. 

Admittedly, I've never tried the Nokians, but I have tried the best Michelin, Vredestein and Continental have had to offer at the time of fitting. The Continentals were the best all-rounders, but still performed like budget summer tyres in the dry.

[Deacon 1357]

1 minute ago, S18 RSG said:

Admittedly, I've never tried the Nokians, but I have tried the best Michelin, Vredestein and Continental have had to offer at the time of fitting. The Continentals were the best all-rounders, but still performed like budget summer tyres in the dry.

I've found the Nokians to be better than the Continental CS5's I had even in the middle of summer

[Deacon 1357]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

If I was on my own, I'd happily go out in the snow (got caught a couple of winters ago in some snow - enough to cover the kerbs - and didn't have major issues once I accepted that accelerating wasn't going to happen ) - it's the other people out there that would stop me going out. Even with winter tyres, just because you've got grip, chances are other people don't and someone could easily end up sliding straight into you...

The advantage that winters give is the traction to allow you the chance to get out of the way from people sliding towards you. This happened to me a few years ago when I had my scirocco on winters - a woman in a fiesta was driving far too quickly on the compacted snow and couldn't stop in time (fully locked up and out of control). The winters allowed me to accelerate out of her way. I think she eventually came to a halt after she'd bounced off the kerb a few times. 

[Tom B 44]

2 hours ago, Tom B said:

Personal circumstance is the biggest factor if your asking are they 'Worth it'.

If I've just finished a shift at 6 in the morning to find it's snowed overnight and I'm stuck on the car park at work, Winter tyres may just get me home and to me they will have been worth their weight in gold. And if that doesn't happen, I'll have the peace of mind I'm reasonably prepared.

Obviously if you live in the middle of a city or don't need your car to commute or get about then clearly winter tyres may be a waste of money. 

 

[S18 RSG 429]

14 minutes ago, Tom B said:

If I've just finished a shift at 6 in the morning to find it's snowed overnight and I'm stuck on the car park at work, Winter tyres may just get me home and to me they will have been worth their weight in gold. And if that doesn't happen, I'll have the peace of mind I'm reasonably prepared.

Obviously if you live in the middle of a city or don't need your car to commute or get about then clearly winter tyres may be a waste of money. 

 

You're a salesman's dream. 

While we're on the subject, I'm selling some household earthquake insurance. Obviously, the chances of an earthquake are very low, but you can never be too safe.

[Tom B 44]

27 minutes ago, S18 RSG said:

You're a salesman's dream. 

While we're on the subject, I'm selling some household earthquake insurance. Obviously, the chances of an earthquake are very low, but you can never be too safe.

I'm struggling to see your argument here? I base my opinion on evidence shown through many many trials and tests of winter tyres. - They work and that can't be denied.  Quite ignorant of you to think that because you don't need them, no one else does. 

 

Edit - In reply the the salesmans dream comment, my winter tyres cost £400 which you may view as an unnecessary purchase. 

Far less than the £4.5k you've just spent on a Turbo that I view as unnecessary purchase. 

 

Different perspectives that's all. 

Edited November 9, 2016 by Tom B

[S18 RSG 429]

35 minutes ago, Tom B said:

I'm struggling to see your argument here? I base my opinion on evidence shown through many many trials and tests of winter tyres. - They work and that can't be denied.  Quite ignorant of you to think that because you don't need them, no one else does. 

Sticking with that very same logic, it must be equally ignorant of you to claim your opinion as fact: "they work and that can't be denied", based on your ability to watch a Youtube video or read an article, yet you cannot extend the same validity to someone with an opposing opinion to yours who has carried out years of trials and testing on his own car(s), in an area that justifies the need for winter tyres more than just about any other user contributing to this discussion.

Why is your opinion, based on someone else's opinion, more valid than mine based on my own experience (and others in this thread with similar opinions based on similar experiences)?

Need I remind you that the media is heavily influenced by advertising. It's a distinct possibility that many "winter tyre tests" you can find on the net, may have been influenced by *insert brand name here* paying that media outlet to make that video, in an attempt to promote their product.

And now I've given an actual answer to your question, let me ask as a follow up: did you seriously not take my quite obviously satirical response to your post as such?

[S18 RSG 429]

38 minutes ago, Tom B said:

Edit - In reply the the salesmans dream comment, my winter tyres cost £400 which you may view as an unnecessary purchase. 

Far less than the £4.5k you've just spent on a Turbo that I view as unnecessary purchase. 

Your edit deserves it's own reply, for sake of visibility. 

I would like you to quote reply to this post with anywhere on the internet where I have stated a turbo kit as "necessary".

All my social media links are S18 RSG/S18RSG. Only when you can do this will I consider your edit as even remotely relevant.

Spoiler alert: you won't.

[Tom B 44]

It's too exhausting to argue as your not willing to accept alternative points of view. That's the idea behind a discussion based thread like this. I've never once claimed winter tyres are 'necessary' Just that I've fitted them and that they give me peace of mind in winter conditions and that's my 2p. Your opinion is that they aren't needed, fine. You then threw the 'Salesmans dream' insult at me, but don't like I when it's  pointed out you can be viewed to be in that category as well. Seem to be off topic now anyway, back to  Winter tyres. 

[chelseablue 8]

Oh dear, I seem to have opened a wasps nest with my opinion on winter tyres, I'm happy to go without them and those of you who want them then that's fine as well, let's not all fall out over our opinions and play nicely👍

[S18 RSG 429]

27 minutes ago, Tom B said:

It's too exhausting to argue as your not willing to accept alternative points of view. That's the idea behind a discussion based thread like this. I've never once claimed winter tyres are 'necessary' Just that I've fitted them and that they give me peace of mind in winter conditions and that's my 2p. Your opinion is that they aren't needed, fine. You then threw the 'Salesmans dream' insult at me, but don't like I when it's  pointed out you can be viewed to be in that category as well. Seem to be off topic now anyway, back to  Winter tyres. 

Since when am I unable to accept an alternative point of view? I don't think it's exhausting for that reason, I think you just don't like that I can reply very appropriately to your posts. Plus, I'm not arguing, I'm discussing.

"In heavy rainfall (with lots of standing water), light snow or slush, winter tyres have some benefits"

That's a direct quote from my first post in this thread. To me, that sounds like I'm completely conceding the fact that your point of view carries some weight, but as I've said all along, it's just such a small window of time that I feel like your opinion is valid, from what my experience would suggest. All other times apart from those specific instances where you are getting a benefit, I feel you're significantly worse off than if you had what you run throughout the rest of the year.

This was the reasoning behind my "salesman's dream" post. You got persuaded to buy a product you didn't need, and I'm sure you didn't buy through pure desire for the product, based on what someone who was likely paid to promote told you.

That's my "on topic" response, now to put to rest the "off topic" bit (providing of course you have no further response). I want to remind you, it was you with your mention of the turbo that took this discussion away from the original topic. Even my "salesman's dream" quote was very much related to the discussion. Where I have a problem is with you suggesting that I have spent £4.5k of my own hard earned money because of a sales pitch. I'll have you know that I took on 3 jobs this year so I could save for some personal things, and testament to my hard work, happened to have some cash left over to treat myself. Whether you view my purchase as necessary or not, I couldn't care less, but I'm fairly certain you would do the same if you had the luxury, regardless of necessity. I seem to recall you actually mentioned you were considering forced induction. Funny how you now try to insult someone who's doing it.

[KobayashiMaru 28]

This is the first time I've ever had winters fitted to a car so I have an open mind with these. I'm fully aware that 7°C and above they will wobble about a bit more and have experienced this. I drove back from work on Monday around 7pm and it was around 1°C. There was definitely more grip compared to the stock Primacy's and the car was perfectly enjoyable. When pulling away the rear did have more of a tendency to break traction when temps were higher but with fine clutch control it's fine. Tbh I found this with the worn down Primacys too towards the end.

I've always been in the camp of I'll just drive slower instead of having winters and my vRS won't have winters. It's running on Michelin PS4's which are fine unless it's extremely wet. I'm in mid Wales so when it snows it's bad so we'll see how it goes. You always still drive to the conditions and I'm not under any illusion that winters are a magic bean that lets you still drive flat out in winter conditions. I definitely wouldn't say it's a pointless exercise as I've noticed benefits already plus the plan has always been to put winters on the stock wheels then buy lighter wheels with Michelin's for Spring. So next year they'll be an option should we think we need them. Not only that the benefit of lighter wheels and better tyres will be appreciated so much more.

[Deacon 1357]

Winter tyres have saved my car twice - once from the lady not driving to the conditions and being on unsuitable tyres I detailed above and once when I hit a patch of black ice. The winter tyres didn't stop me sliding on the black ice but they did allow me to regain traction and safely negotiate the bend the ice was on with no harm to me or the car (apart from a somewhat increased heart rate for me anyway!) The same couldn't be said for the two cars following me - the first of which hit the (high) kerb hard enough to give the front passenger side wheel some considerable negative camber and the second hit the first car. These two incidents alone make winter tyres a no brainier for me as the money and hassle they saved me far outweigh the costs and hassle associated with having them.

Chosen well there doesn't need to be any noticeable detriment to try weather performance and there are other benefits such as reduced wear, etc too. I used the Nokian WRA3 tyres for my CAT DT day in the summer on one of the hottest days we had (32 degrees). They held up to high speed breaking, the high speed bowl (hitting speeds of nearly 130mph), fast laps of the handling circuit and the first 3 sessions of the final gymkhana before finally falling off the cliff in terms of grip on the final session and earning me the 'sliddy chocolate'. However, in these conditions, and with the way they were being used, I wouldn't have been surprised to find a summer tyre had also given up at this point.

Winter and summer tyre likes and dislikes are always very subjective - I know Ross likes the Veredstein Sessantas which I thought were mediocre at best and lots of people really rate the continental cs5 but I, and I know a few others, haven't really got on with them on this platform.

It does seem from reading back through this thread that those of us who favour winter tyres have shared our views as to why they've been good (for us), offered info on the tyres we've tried, etc whereas some of the winter tyres naysayers / those who've never tried them have suggested they're pointless or made out like you're a gullible idiot to use them or want to try them with a lot of personal opinion being made out to be fact.

A shame that what could be a useful sharing of experience has turned into that imho.

[S18 RSG 429]

1 hour ago, Deacon said:

It does seem from reading back through this thread that those of us who favour winter tyres have shared our views as to why they've been good (for us), offered info on the tyres we've tried, etc whereas some of the winter tyres naysayers / those who've never tried them have suggested they're pointless or made out like you're a gullible idiot to use them or want to try them with a lot of personal opinion being made out to be fact.

A shame that what could be a useful sharing of experience has turned into that imho.

I had planned not to say anything else after my last post, as it seems like very often having an opinion that differs from a Youtube video, or a web article, means you're just being "negative", as opposed to giving a real life counter argument. This is, after all, a discussion board, and discussions with one common opinion are quite boring.

That being said, it's comments like yours Jeff that don't sit well with me.

For starters, I gave my views as to why they've not worked for me, and offered info on the tyres I tried (which paraphrases the reason why your opinion counts for so much). So, if I offered the same information to support my opinion, why does mine count for so much less? Simply because it's not your opinion?

Secondly, nowhere have I seen any information in this thread that would lead to anybody's personal opinion being made out to be fact. One external link has been posted in this thread, to a Youtube video testing two FWD people carriers, yet we're talking about RWD sports cars. Can't see how that video is particularly relevant, other than the fact that it supports what you say. I'm sure if I looked around hard enough, I could find evidence to support my own opinion also. Thing is, I don't feel like evidence is required when I'm basing my opinion off of my own experience, not what some journalist says, so I don't need confirmation from some journalist to validate my point of view. I'm fairly confident in my own judgement.

Thirdly, I feel like this has been a very useful sharing of experiences, because there are two very different opinions, yet somehow you don't? Is that because there are people with opposing opinions to your own who can back them up? Would this thread be more of a useful source of information if everyone shared your opinion? I think that's a little bit shallow, to suggest that your opinion is the only valid contribution to this thread.

Finally, and I left this til last as it's the most irrelevant part. Nowhere did I call anyone a "gullible idiot". I simply suggested that certain people (not even you) seem to be very easily influenced by a form of media which we know has the capability to be corrupted by money and advertisement. Really, people should form their opinions from unbiassed sources, such as this forum, in which case, there are two quite clearly different opinions which may persuade that same person to make a more informed decision.

[Keethos 842]

Right, I'm putting my foot down and calling it here, no one is questioning other peoples opinions, no one is saying you can't have a different opinion, different opinions are great for discussion etc.

The issue here (and also in other threads with other members), where arguments develop, is usually down to how people word their arguments.  You can easily word things too strongly to make them sound like they are coming across as fact and not allowing others to disagree/discuss.  There's plenty of good information for and against on this thread and is all it should be.  Experiences are great to give people ideas on what to potentially expect but if worded incorrectly can push people away from the product and from the discussion.  Granted you can be passionate or enthusiastic about things but please do check what you write and before anyone jumps on the bandwagon and tells me that they have the right to their opinions etc. again, I (and I'm sure many others) don't have a problem with your opinions, just please try and word it slightly differently so you don't come across overly aggressive, opinionated or big headed (obviously not saying that anyone is all of these things.....except for @smudge maybe  only joking....Love you Jordan )

[Keethos 842]

Now that's out the way, just my 2 pence, I was originally going to get some winters, especially during the more heavier snow years a couple of years back but then the snow stopped and the winters have been somewhat mild around here over the past couple of years so I've not really bothered much but I did read up on some and the Nokians were definitely the ones I was going to get.  Luckily for me, if I need to venture further out into areas prone to snow for training courses then I can easily get a hire car through work and not risk my 86, but if you can't get an alternative (which I know some people can't since the 86 is their only car) then winters are definitely a safe choice.  It's not a waste of money if it can offer you a bit of assurance.  Hell, lots of people would say track day insurance is a waste of money....until that one time you bin, getting track day insurance is a good weight off your mind which allows you to enjoy the day more so in my opinion worth every penny so I would say the same for winter tyres.

[Mike 458]

2 minutes ago, Keethos said:

Now that's out the way, just my 2 pence, I was originally going to get some winters, especially during the more heavier snow years a couple of years back but then the snow stopped and the winters have been somewhat mild around here over the past couple of years so I've not really bothered much but I did read up on some and the Nokians were definitely the ones I was going to get.  Luckily for me, if I need to venture further out into areas prone to snow for training courses then I can easily get a hire car through work and not risk my 86, but if you can't get an alternative (which I know some people can't since the 86 is their only car) then winters are definitely a safe choice.  It's not a waste of money if it can offer you a bit of assurance.  Hell, lots of people would say track day insurance is a waste of money....until that one time you bin, getting track day insurance is a good weight off your mind which allows you to enjoy the day more so in my opinion worth every penny so I would say the same for winter tyres.

Sorry, but you're completely wrong  

[Rich 378]

15 hours ago, S18 RSG said:

On the contrary, I live and work in an area with one of the highest snow and rain fall figures in the UK (outside of Scotland anyway) and I find winter tyres to be nothing more than a fad.

In extreme winter weather, such as heavy snowfall, there are very few road based tyres that will help. Sure, if you can get away with fitting skinny studded tyres you might get somewhere, but a 7+ inch wide road tyre with some slightly deeper tread doesn't make a scrap bit of difference.

In heavy rainfall (with lots of standing water), light snow or slush, winter tyres have some benefits, but sensible people drive in those sort of conditions with extreme amounts of care. With that sort of driving, a decent all season tyre is every bit as good as a dedicated winter tyre. The only difference is the limit of grip. If you're never getting close to the limit of grip on an all season, you don't need the extra margin for error.

For the conditions we have, I have found winter tyres to be a complete waste of money. If the weather is really awful (6+ inches of snow) I'm not even using my car anyway. If the weather is poor (heavy rain or light snow) I just drive more carefully.

Another consideration. We all get heavy rain and ice for a few months of the year, but it isn't constant (maybe 1 week in 4). In the 3 weeks where the weather is ok again, winter tyres are a complete liability. In fact, I would say winter tyres perform comparably worse on a dry road than all seasons do in the winter, which is just a poor trade off.

For the record, I have personally had winter tyres for 3 out of 8 winters since I started driving. My dad has also had 3 or 4 sets over the past 10 or so years. This also covers all ranges of cars (my Porsche Boxster, my old Ibiza Cupra, dad's old 911, dad's old Civic Type R, his current T5 camper and my mum's Scenic) and none of those experiences have persuaded us to go down that route again.

If you have the money, or are curious to try for yourself, go right ahead, but it's really a pointless exercise.

You say that a decent all season is just as good, and you're right. For UK winters an all season is probably just as good if not better than a winter. But people here don't fit all seasons either, they fit summer tyres and then slide all over the place.

Personally I've never tried an all season, but there is a very clear advantage in my experience between winters and summers in slush and cold rain. My comparison was Pilot Sport 3s vs Dunlop Wintersport 3Ds. The Dunlops were much much better until you got into double figures. In slush I was able to drive down a motorway, in control, at twice the speed of everyone else (they were doing ~20 mph in lane 1, I did 40 in lane 2). The only other vehicle that was able to drive at any speed was an ambulance who overtook me (but I'd assume they're on winters).

They weren't terrible in warmer and drier conditions either. I was able to drive quite normally in 20C heat when I left them on a bit late one year. While I wouldn't want to take them on track, they had more than sufficient warm dry grip for road use in any conditions we're likely to encounter this side of June.

All this talk is getting me tempted to get some winter tyres now...

[S18 RSG 429]

27 minutes ago, Keethos said:

Right, I'm putting my foot down and calling it here, no one is questioning other peoples opinions, no one is saying you can't have a different opinion, different opinions are great for discussion etc.

The issue here (and also in other threads with other members), where arguments develop, is usually down to how people word their arguments.  You can easily word things too strongly to make them sound like they are coming across as fact and not allowing others to disagree/discuss.  There's plenty of good information for and against on this thread and is all it should be.  Experiences are great to give people ideas on what to potentially expect but if worded incorrectly can push people away from the product and from the discussion.  Granted you can be passionate or enthusiastic about things but please do check what you write and before anyone jumps on the bandwagon and tells me that they have the right to their opinions etc. again, I (and I'm sure many others) don't have a problem with your opinions, just please try and word it slightly differently so you don't come across overly aggressive, opinionated or big headed (obviously not saying that anyone is all of these things.....except for @smudge maybe  only joking....Love you Jordan )

If someone writes something passionately, and that suggests they think their opinion is fact, that's completely subjective. If someone uses the phrase "my personal opinion is fact", there's no interpretation of that sentence that suggests anything other than what is said, and is quite ignorant.

At no point have I used that phrase, and throughout the thread I've accepted the opposite opinion as having some merit in certain scenarios. I've not been extended that same gratitude by others, and I will not be punished for my ability to write my opinions in a clear and subjective way.

I'm not going to fall out with people over a difference of opinion, that's ridiculous, but if people want to have a discussion, they should expect a discussion, not a group of people accepting their every word as fact.

[S18 RSG 429]

15 minutes ago, Rich said:

You say that a decent all season is just as good, and you're right. For UK winters an all season is probably just as good if not better than a winter. But people here don't fit all seasons either, they fit summer tyres and then slide all over the place.

Perhaps all season isn't the correct term. I just mean any tyre that performs well in all weather. Uniroyal Rainsports, for example, were absolutely fantastic in the winter, but equally great in the summer. I don't believe they were an official all season tyre, but performed as such.

I find the Vredesteins I run now to be of a similar quality, although perhaps not quite as good through periods of poor weather. Perhaps that's why I feel so strongly against winters. I've always managed to find a good summer tyre that works in the winter, rather than trying to find a winter tyre that works in the dry.

In my area, running a track spec tyre, or a dedicated fast road tyre just isn't that sensible, as we have so much rain and cold throughout the year, you never know when you could get caught out.

[Deacon 1357]

2 minutes ago, S18 RSG said:

...you never know when you could get caught out.

And isn't this the exact reason why some people may choose to use winter tyres?

I'm sorry my discussion points don't sit well with you Ross - calling Tom a "salesman's dream" for choosing something you don't agree with didn't sit well with me.

I would also like to make 100% clear that I in no way expect people to take my experiences as correct - that's why I've been careful to point out that what I've posted is why I run winter tyres not why anyone else should. As far as I'm aware everyone on here is an adult so it's their call what they buy for their cars. But if someone asks for opinions on something I know something about I'll share them. If that information proves useful then great - it was worth the time to contribute.

Anyway as Keith requested I'll say no more.

 

[S18 RSG 429]

23 minutes ago, Deacon said:

And isn't this the exact reason why some people may choose to use winter tyres?

I thought this was just a reason to choose good tyres, appropriate for their requirements. Track tyres certainly don't suit the conditions around here, but on topic, I feel like neither do winter tyres. I need best of both worlds, not something that only works in one scenario.

23 minutes ago, Deacon said:

I'm sorry my discussion points don't sit well with you Ross - calling Tom a "salesman's dream" for choosing something you don't agree with didn't sit well with me.

I would also like to make 100% clear that I in no way expect people to take my experiences as correct - that's why I've been careful to point out that what I've posted is why I run winter tyres not why anyone else should. As far as I'm aware everyone on here is an adult so it's their call what they buy for their cars. But if someone asks for opinions on something I know something about I'll share them. If that information proves useful then great - it was worth the time to contribute.

It's not your point of view I have problems with, it's your opinion which you're completely entitled to, and have contributed very useful information to back up, exactly what we need to make this discussion healthy and worthwhile. My problem was just with how you seemed to suggest any opinion other than yours wasn't valid by claiming your opinion as "fact", and suggesting that opposing opinions were reducing the validity of the information here. I feel quite the opposite. The more opinions we have here, the better, whether they follow my opinion or not.

As for the "salesman's dream" thing. I've addressed this already, but the strength of that term was an attempt at satire, based on what I feel is a perfectly valid thought process. Tom said he got his opinion from watching videos and reading articles. I don't feel like a well structured opinion can be formed without personal experience. Therefore, "salesman's dream" is quite valid, as it suggests that he is easily manipulated by any form of media and would therefore buy anything that someone says is good. For the record, if he was supporting my point of view, but suggested that he got his opinion from watching videos or reading articles, and not from actually trying it himself, I'd probably still think the same thing, though I'd have perhaps not felt I had a reason to mention it.

23 minutes ago, Deacon said:

Anyway as Keith requested I'll say no more.

I'm happy to continue the discussion in a civil manner as Keith requested. I don't think he wanted to completely shut down the discussion, as it's a very useful one

[Deacon 1357]

8 minutes ago, S18 RSG said:

My problem was just with how you seemed to suggest any opinion other than yours wasn't valid by claiming your opinion as "fact", and suggesting that opposing opinions were reducing the validity of the information here.

I will have to take objection to this - nowhere have I stated my opinion is fact - quite the opposite - I've been at pains to point out it is only my opinion, that tyre choice is very subjective and that these are my experiences and the reasons I'm sharing for using winter tyres may not apply to others.

Maybe you're not seeing how the "salesman's dream" comment reads but it comes across not as satire but as rudeness.

[S18 RSG 429]

6 minutes ago, Deacon said:

I will have to take objection to this - nowhere have I stated my opinion is fact - quite the opposite - I've been at pains to point out it is only my opinion, that tyre choice is very subjective and that these are my experiences and the reasons I'm sharing for using winter tyres may not apply to others.

Maybe you're not seeing how the "salesman's dream" comment reads but it comes across not as satire but as rudeness.

I'll hold my hands up there, I misread your post and will apologise for that suggestion. You used the word fact, and I read it as you saying "some opinions being found out as fact", whereas you said "made out to be fact", which I've already addressed as something I've not done either.

You mis-interpretted something I said, I mis-interpretted something you said. I think that makes us even

[Keethos 842]

1 hour ago, S18 RSG said:

If someone writes something passionately, and that suggests they think their opinion is fact, that's completely subjective. If someone uses the phrase "my personal opinion is fact", there's no interpretation of that sentence that suggests anything other than what is said, and is quite ignorant.

At no point have I used that phrase, and throughout the thread I've accepted the opposite opinion as having some merit in certain scenarios. I've not been extended that same gratitude by others, and I will not be punished for my ability to write my opinions in a clear and subjective way.

I'm not going to fall out with people over a difference of opinion, that's ridiculous, but if people want to have a discussion, they should expect a discussion, not a group of people accepting their every word as fact.

Yes it can be subjective but you can make it less likely for people to read into it incorrectly by wording slightly differently, that's the main problem with forums, it can be very easy to miscommunicate what you've written because someone can read it in a certain way and misinterpret your intentions because of it.  Using the phrases "nothing more than a fad" and "it's really a pointless exercise" are example of words which could have been reworded to come across as less opinionated.  I will give you credit that your first post had a fair chunk of informative information and well based comments but the start and end of it is what some people might interpret the wrong way.

 

Plus the part about calling someone a saleman's dream being satire isn't any better (googling satire gives - the use of humour, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices), if it's supposed to be banter fair enough but know your audience or target before you try and brush it off as banter as they might not see it that way.

 

Agreed though, my post wasn't to shut people up, please do continue the discussion as intended, just please do consider how you are wording things.