Jump to content
Deacon

So.... talk manifolds to me

Recommended Posts

A manifold is this year's main upgrade I think and so I've done lots of research and reading. Enough that I'm now totally confused!

I currently have a cobra non res cat back. I'm happy with the sound and don't really want much louder. I also want to be able to pass mot's without lots of faff or needing a 'mate'.

So my question, if I get a manifold but keep the stock over pipe and second cat is that liable to meet my needs? Will keeping the stock overpipe and second cat cost me much in the way of power or torque?

All thoughts gratefully received!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You already know this but I'm in the same boat, though I've got a Berk HFC which according to Jay, won't pass an MOT test when you have a catless manigold, unless you get the car really really hot just before the test :(

Are there many manifold with HFC in them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Keethos said:

Are there many manifold with HFC in them?

FT86 speed factory do a catted header, there's also an HKS one and FA20Club do one too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Keethos said:

 

You already know this but I'm in the same boat, though I've got a Berk HFC which according to Jay, won't pass an MOT test when you have a catless manigold, unless you get the car really really hot just before the test :(

Are there many manifold with HFC in them?

Same here :( I have the cat less HKS manifold with the Berk HFC.... Love the benefits now stressed about the MOT in August.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You'll probably need to invest in a decent high flow cat in the secondary position. I'm not sure the Berk one is decent enough, so it will add to the cost if you want to get the most benefit. 

But then again if the secondary cat will do the job, it's a cheaper way round it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ii did some testing on this two years past - I found the answer (as recommended by Hayward & Scott) was to use a 200cel HFC, anything less will probably cause a problem. Keethos is right - you have to persuade the tester to get the car well and truly hot as the lamda sensor is usually repositioned further away from the manifold and the ECU will adjust AFR if it feels left out in the cold . . unwanted . . cast off like a well-worn seaboot.

It sobs itself to sleep - I've heard it, honest . .

Spec K

Edited by Special K

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure if this is the right place or should start a new topic...

To get best NA performance (grunt=power+torque) what are the options/combinations?

Conditions:

1. Must be legal inc. pass MOT

2. Not offensively loud

3. Not just numbers at the expense of driveability, throttle response &/or reliability

4. Cost no more than £1.50

Handling/stopping to come later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Too many factors to give one answer to be honest.

Best for power (peak power anyway) in a non catted equal length manifold, but you'll need to spend a decent amount of money on a big secondary cat to pass MOT.

Best for torque is an unequal length manifold without a cat, but same problem.

If you want to go for a catted manifold to reduce noise and pass MOT, there are plenty of options in the equal length category, but only 2 or 3 options for unequal length with cat, and most, if not all, are from the US, so will cost you a fair amount in shipping and taxes.

Solution I have decided on, but not yet put into action (bearing in mind I share the same conditions as you) is to go with a catted equal length manifold. My current exhaust is fairly loud (secondary decat and custom resonated catback) and I expect a bit more volume, but this option has the most options and provides the most advantages compared to other options in my opinion.

Edit - As this is a manifolds thread, I completely assumed you meant best NA performance manifold option :/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, daidaiiro said:

Not sure if this is the right place or should start a new topic...

To get best NA performance (grunt=power+torque) what are the options/combinations?

Conditions:

1. Must be legal inc. pass MOT

2. Not offensively loud

3. Not just numbers at the expense of driveability, throttle response &/or reliability

4. Cost no more than £1.50

Handling/stopping to come later.

I think your best option here is a cat back, remap and air filter. Low temp thermostat is also a good option. Add a manifold to the mix if you want to spend the dolla for another 5hp and removal of the torque dip.

If you go for a catless manifold, you want a quiet cat back exhaust, the Invidia Q300 is one of the quietest.

so the shopping list could be:

  1. Q300 cat back ~£700
  2. ACE 400 manifold ~£1100
  3. thermostat Cosworth ~£70
  4. Air Filter Cosworth ~ £35
  5. remap inc licence ~£400

I reckon the above would net you 30hp peak but alot for area under the curve.

I like the Cosworth stuff and think the mapping is really good, but I am biased :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Save yourself £20 and get the Mishimoto thermostat. I'd wager its the same thing in a different box.

As much as the Ace is awesome, there are plenty of other good options for around half the price.

I might be selling a decatted OEM manifold soon, I barely noticed much change in noise. It'll be cheap and many on the US forums reckon it'd be effective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the Cosworth air filter, AVO 2.1/2" cat-back system and EcuTek map by Fensport so I guess it's [just?] a matter of determining which manifold plays nicely with the AVO, plus the thermostat?

I'm interested to know what effect the thermostat may have though? Scrub that, found the info on website - which also makes a deal of their induction hose; 5 BHP gain; credible?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exhaust system is relatively irrelevant when it comes to manifolds. They are all similar enough.

Apart from that info, Cosworth state it allows you to run a touch more ignition timing due to the cooler block which will net you a little extra power. That's really the only benefit. It's a simple install though and cheap so on the bhp/£ it's actually up there with an air filter.

Intake hoses are mostly bling but Mark did say that he had a car on the dyno recently with one and the MAF output was better. Whether that meant more power though,probably not. I did produce decent power when I had my AVO one on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

knightryder: regarding Ace's price: 1) NA power gains in general are expensive, so why not get best at that from part that makes up most of gains?

2) people had got similar gains with that header with everything rest stock as some others with way more exhaust bits upgraded. -Another way to "save".

3) when comparing prices among headers, you should add price of overpipe to those "cheaper" ones, as it's integrated in Ace's construction/design. And by then difference of price is nearly diminished.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, knightryder said:

Intake hoses are mostly bling but Mark did say that he had a car on the dyno recently with one and the MAF output was better. Whether that meant more power though,probably not. I did produce decent power when I had my AVO one on.

It was probably my car that Mark was referring to. I said this in the thread I made in Abbey's trader section, but Mark said he was surprised in the effect it had in smoothing out some of the graphs.

I certainly wouldn't say it made any more power though. I literally only changed it as I also changed a load of other hoses to red to match the car.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Church said:

knightryder: regarding Ace's price: 1) NA power gains in general are expensive, so why not get best at that from part that makes up most of gains?

Because not everyone will want to spend £1k on a manifold. I agree that the Ace seems to be the pick of the bunch, but when you can pick up a Skunk2/HKS/Tomei or similar for half the price, you're not getting only half the gains.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm looking at going with a tuning developments manifold/over pipe combo.

They seem to boast good gains with a remap, as well as the fact I like the design. Also, U.K. Based company that support the community :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, STEVO9000 said:

I'm looking at going with a tuning developments manifold/over pipe combo.

They seem to boast good gains with a remap, as well as the fact I like the design. Also, U.K. Based company that support the community :)

Make sure you get it coated, the up and over manifolds introduce a fair amount of heat into the bay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, knightryder said:

Save yourself £20 and get the Mishimoto thermostat. I'd wager its the same thing in a different box.

I don't think it is the same if you compare the images. I might be wrong though. I'd go Cosworth as its a trie and tested part and well #becausefanboy

Mishimoto:

subaru-brz-racing-thermostat-2013-113.jp

Cosworth:

FA20-Thermo.jpg

1 hour ago, daidaiiro said:

I'm interested to know what effect the thermostat may have though? Scrub that, found the info on website - which also makes a deal of their induction hose; 5 BHP gain; credible?

According to Matt (Cosworth Engineer - you might know him as 350matt in the TVR world) the thermostat, which drops engine temp by about 10C, gives more knock headroom and when the timing is mapped accordingly, you net about 3hp. #everylittlecounts

The stock air box is good for 350hp. Any induction offering make power by tricking the ECU into thinking less air is going into the engine than actually is by messing with the airflow around the MAF, and thus makes it run a bit leaner. A re calibration of the MAF sensor and all those gain are lost on an N/A car.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ade the operating temps are the same. I bet that those photos are probably just generic ones anyway..... a thermostat is a thermostat. Do you think that Cosworth actually manufacture their own? If they both operate the same, I would rather not spend £20 more for a Cosworth box to sit in my cupboard/recycling bin....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, knightryder said:

@Ade the operating temps are the same. I bet that those photos are probably just generic ones anyway..... a thermostat is a thermostat. Do you think that Cosworth actually manufacture their own? If they both operate the same, I would rather not spend £20 more for a Cosworth box to sit in my cupboard/recycling bin....

A thermostat is not just a thermostat! 

Transient response one important part. You don't want the thing over cooling or worse oscillating trying to find an equilibrium point.

As I said they might be the same, but I wouldn't take the risk for a sake of £20. 

The Mishimoto stuff seems good quality though. The sandwich plate I have is very well machined. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×