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Mark@Abbey M/S

road remap rather than just sticking it on a Dyno and mapping in a simulated static environment.

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I always wonder why people say the above;

 

I feel if someone knows how to use a dyno a dyno is a far better piece of equipment to tune car on;

 

Can you tell if you have the cams in a right place or if the maximum advance you can run on the road will give maximum performance by tuning on the road.

 

I think when we have the next dyno day we will spend sometime on the dyno and show everyone why you need a dyno to tune these cars. 

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We always use a mixture of both, the dyno is a fantastic tool and a very good investment for us. Most of the tuning is done on the dyno, with final checks done on the road afterwards.

Also find it much safer on the dyno, especially with bigger powered cars.

Cheers

Mike Jones

Tuning Developments Ltd

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I'm not a tuner, so my opinion quite frankly isn't valid. But i'm kind of along the lines of Mike, I think both the road and Dyno can both be valuable tuning tools in their own right and actually using both is a sensible option. The fact you have an extremely good dyno is a plus. I don't think people quite appreciate it. Perhaps its the thought of ooo we're tuning on the road this is brilliant! rather than the fact it's better.

 

To me it's neither here nor there!

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:ph34r:  Sorry Mark, I hope I did not offend with my comment there, I could easily be talking out of my arse otherwise I'd be tuning cars myself :P  But it's something that I've heard others say and it kinda makes sense but I can also definitely see the benefits of using a dyno too.  It's definitely nice to visually see your tweaks and hard work and can tune to a certain characteristic using the dyno but in my mind it's more about the environment and feel of the car after you've tuned it.  Some people might not have got a decent enough dyno system that gives enough or realistic air flow or something.  But I agree, it is a safer environment, especially if you don't have decent or quiet enough roads to do it on.

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You can't fine tune cams without a dyno, this makes manifold and internal changes a must for dyno tuning if you want the best reults. Then fine tuning can occur by using road load situations, although these can also be simulated by certain dynos.

 

With the adaptive way these Subaru ECUs work, checking and maintaining the way they run continuously is ideal. If you do this even a dyno tune will have some form of road tuning, and this can be done away from your tuner.

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Seeing that this thread is a copy and paste from the other forum, I may as well copy and past my post from the other forum as well :)

 

This has the making of another - what is better - turbocharger or supercharger argument! smiley2.gif

 
My personal opinion is, it very much depends on who is doing the mapping.  My car is my daily driver, and so the driveability of the car is crucial.  Adrian mapped it on the road, by viewing the logs from the ECU, not seat of the pants but dyno.  He is also a very competent driver (when he is not getting black flagged smiley36.gif), so knows better than a lot how a car should feel in the real world, as apposed to just numbers on a dyno.  I have already posted the dyno graph of my car, and in fact the people at The Powerhouse were really impressed with it, and could not believe that it had not been on a dyno as part of the mapping.  I also certainly know from the logs that every parameter is where it should be, and I cannot see how this could be improved via running on a dyno.  What is also really important is how much the tuner really understands the engine, and the interaction between the various maps and parameters in the ECU.  3D mapping involves a lot more that simply 'chasing the numbers'!  Over the years I have seen plenty of car engines destroyed on dynos by 'tuners' not knowing what they are doing.  In the same way as there are a lot of sad stories on FT86.com of destroyed / badly performing cars after having been road tuned.  The likes of John Visconti have jumped onto the band wagon in order to make a fast buck without the necessary knowledge or ability.  If the likes of him had access to a dyno do you think the results would be any better?
 
Another point to consider is the fact that no dyno totally emulates real world driving (for example, apart from no true air flow / wind resistance, a hub dyno eliminated the effect of the wheels of the car, a single roller dyno is subject to slippage, and a twin roller dyno adds a lot of drag).
 
As I stated above, this is all my opinion, and is not meant as a start of a cyber war smiley2.gif
 
As an aside, a dyno CAN be safer:
 
 

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But his own turbo will have seen a dyno I'd assume, and seeing as yours is basically the same (with respect to internals and direct bolt ons) then the rest is just still fine tuning with timing and fuelling. This can be done on the road. If Adrian were to change cams and manifolds, I bet he'd head straight to a dyno. I know of no tuner who wouldn't. Even the base N/A map would have seen some dyno time before it was put up for sale.

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Keith - do not be apologetic - you told it how you felt it...

 

Horses for courses. A dyno is, undoubtedly,  the sole focus for a track car. If nothing else it was the only way of developing performance on a race car.... but today it isn't rocket science, F1 uses 'simulators' and even amateur trackday cars now log data with the driver in charge, then log data with the instructor... review the overlay tapes..

 

(I'm mindful of who won the GT86 class at Blyton when I erred  - 'Instructor' at Donington who uses a GT86 - he was totally focussed between each run on his laptop comparables.. blew the top seeds in the class into the weeds and won it by mega-seconds. So I'm glad the regs are being changed for next year.. make monkeys, make enemies..)

 

Science has exceeded 1960's technology - dyno's are no longer the sole measure of 'satisfaction' or 'performance', we are now into the touchy-feely areas of F1 on road cars. The ECU unit in today's F1 car - produced by McLaren - has 11,000 programmable elements - they can 'tune out' a bit of extra torque which upsets Jensen in tyre-management mode and dial in a bit more economy between tyre stops..change the gearbox millisecond downchange when Sergio complains the 'grab' is upsetting his balance under braking.. the world is in the hands of the expert workman,, ).

 

I'm far more interested in having my cake and eating it. Road-dyno. Road -dyno.

 

Spec K

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Rant mode on:

 

To be totally honest, my concern with this whole thread is what has not been said by Mark.  He has a dyno, Adrian does not (although as said above, certainly his race car map, which is the basis for my car's map, was fine tuned on a dyno).  If the intention is to belittle the work that Adrian is doing, as stated in this thread here : http://www.gt86.org.uk/forums/topic/1219-fensport-performance-ecutek-ecu-remaps/#entry16117, then I think in my opinion it is a piss poor show.  I have spent the majority of my working career working for OEMs (24 years for Toyota), so I do think that I have a fair knowledge about cars.  I have also had the pleasure of knowing a fair number of tuners and performance car builders.  I would not have spent the money I have with Fensport, and would not be spending the money I am still intending on spending with Fensport, if I did not have the respect for Adrian's (and Dave Brooks on the spannering front) skills that I do have.  I am in the fortunate position of being able to pay for what I want, so do not need to try and curry favour with anyone to get something on the cheap.

 

Rant mode off.

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Dave,

 

Mark isn't belittling the work of Adrian at all, in fact they know each other very well and work together on many things to do with the GT86 as far as i'm aware... I would hazard a guess however that Mark could possibly be a little ticked off about the fact that people are saying road tuning is awesome when in reality, there is minimal difference. Besides... with the logging, there's no reason you can't log and ask Mark or Adrian to adjust the tune as they see fit.

 

Who are you suggesting is trying to get something on the cheap? I think it's actually nice of mark to offer dyno days. He didn't charge for the last one and i'm sure he wouldn't on a 2nd. He merely said he would be willing to explain the benefits of tuning on a dyno.

 

Lets all play nicely it's only a discussion :P Perhaps Adrian should drop by the thread and give his two pence?

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I was not suggesting that anyone is getting anything on the cheap - my comment was aimed purely at myself, in that my comments are based on those of a paying customer, without any commercial obligation  :).  In US land, so many posters troll when they are 'sponsored' by vendors, and I did not want anyone to think that I was in that camp.  I know that Mark and Adrian are long term buddies, in fact there was a thread started by Mark on 'the other forum' some time back stating that there was going to be cooperation between the two companies http://www.gt86ownersclub.co.uk/forum/abbey-and-fensport_topic2482.html which I think is fantastic.  I would like to think that here in the UK we are better than the rivalry that exists elsewhere, and I do get narked when I see posts that would appear to be belittling the work done by others.  At the end of the day, the GT86 / BRZ community here in Europe is relatively small, and we should all support each other.  

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Moi?

Maybe the post was started as most people are unaware of how tuning is actually done and believe that you can genuinely tune a car well from scratch on the road. I think this is because its a subject no one understands or how a tune is done. So far the best response was Mike's..... No surprise that it was from a tuner.

There is a place for road tuning, nothing else can simulate the load conditions but its certainly not the 1st step. Power is found on a dyno, drivability is found on the street. This is nothing against Fensport as essentially they are doing this, but their car has seen the dyno in place of yours.

Would be interesting if people started tuning their own cars on the currently available options (OFT/BRZedit/OpenECU), I've certainly considered doing it.

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I agree, there is a lot of that in the US, but as Steve has just said people don't know the ins/outs of it and I think this is where the issue lies of people loving the road tuning. I myself know sweet f*ck all if i'm honest so if Mark is willing to offer time over a dyno to explain further then i'm all ears. Need to put my car back on your dyno anyway :D

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I think knightryder has put it well in the sense that power is found on a dyno and drive-ability is found on the street, I should probably mention that I'm not chasing horse power here.....it's true that I wish to have the car dyno'd but that's purely to see how the car is performing with all the mods that I've had done out of curiosity.  The car currently drives great so it won't matter too much to me how much horse power I get, as long as there is some sort of improvement, be it horse power or torque.  But I wouldn't necessarily say that this was on the dyno tuning, more of on the road tuning with a dyno to check, where as what Mike mentioned, they tune on the dyno and check on the road.

 

My comment definitely wasn't to belittle those who do tune on dynos, again I agree, it's a great tool to tune a car to suit the customer's characteristics, be it max power or max torque as an extreme example, where as my characteristic was more about a natural/balanced increase/boost which I thought on the road tuning suited best.

 

And now that I've read the comments on the other thread, I still stand by my comments regarding on the road tuning and I don't believe a dyno was required at all for my tune, but that's because I was only after a basic tune, I've not changed anything significant to warrant cam tuning and what not.  I can understand why you'd be annoyed with that comment Mark when people say this and they have had extensive work done, then yes, a dyno tune would the best solution but in my case where I haven't had any major internals changed, a dyno isn't necessary at all hence my comment from my original review.

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Keethos, log a standard map and then yours. The intake and exhaust VVT (cam) timing will be different. Thats how the "torque dip" is reduced and is 95% the cause of the smoother delivery and changes in spound. I'll grab a screenshot later of the differences a OFT map.

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I said I would. The maps can be found here - http://www.procedetuning.com/BRZ_FR-S/downloads-4/files/FA20%20ROMS%20v1.31_beta.zip

These are for use with the OpenFlash Tablet - good bit of kit. You can look at and change the maps using TunerPro, a free to use tuning suite - http://www.tunerpro.net/downloadApp.htm. Thought some people may be interested in what maps exist on our ECU.

 

I've done two comparison tables. Front is exhaust VVT timing, rear is intake. There are less changes to the inlet tables hence it's behind.

 

Stock vs Stg. 1 (stock/basic mods retune):

VVT%20Comp%201.jpg

 

Stg.1  vs Stg. 2 (exhaust manifold)

VVT%20Comp%202.jpg

 

These tables show the difference in degrees between the 2, so 0 degrees is where the tables are the same and not necessarily actually at 0 degrees.

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