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1 hour ago, BRZ-123 said:

Great news Tom. Thanks for sharing.
If I read your post correct, you had the hardware fitted by yourselves before going to TD and your ECU has relearnt what it could and adjusted aka your before run is with all hardware installed and your after is just with the tune to perfect the hardware.
If yes, yours is a very unique example of these graphs and should be stored for future ref.

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Yes that's right ( I fitted all first myself then remap was done )

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Kinda looks like the ecu adjusted pretty well by itself to the new hardware even before the map!

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It has indeed. From a typical 20 lbft dip it has gone to 10lbft dip. The dip has got a bit wider though. Starts at 3k instead of 3250. Hence the max gains both torque and power is not as high as old tune has adjusted well to the hardware. This should be a reference graph for people wanting to decide if they need a tune or not.

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Look at the torque curves. You need the remap to get the best out of the replacement manifold.

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To fully gain yes, but the power and torque gains are low compared to someone who went stock upwards. So if budget and/or availability of a reputable tuner is hard, you can benefit from the manifold only.

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Yeah think it's just pretty impressive to see without the tune. Fully support remap needed to reap the full gains, and already saving up for the TD Na kit!

To fully gain yes, but the power and torque gains are low compared to someone who went stock upwards. So if budget and/or availability of a reputable tuner is hard, you can benefit from the manifold only.

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21 hours ago, willclarke said:

Kinda looks like the ecu adjusted pretty well by itself to the new hardware even before the map!

There is no re-adjusting, that's just how the manifold runs with the OEM cam timing. The ECU doesn't "learn" much at all.

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12 hours ago, knightryder said:

There is no re-adjusting, that's just how the manifold runs with the OEM cam timing. The ECU doesn't "learn" much at all.

May the better way to put it is, the hardware made the change to reduce the torque dip, the software didn't as it was not tuned. If ECU does not learn much, how does it work with detecting fuel changes (i.e. high octane vs low octane) and adjust timing to prevent knock? And with a battery reset, its always mentioned ECU needs time to relearn the map, is that a myth then?

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54 minutes ago, BRZ-123 said:

May the better way to put it is, the hardware made the change to reduce the torque dip, the software didn't as it was not tuned. If ECU does not learn much, how does it work with detecting fuel changes (i.e. high octane vs low octane) and adjust timing to prevent knock? And with a battery reset, its always mentioned ECU needs time to relearn the map, is that a myth then?

I'm also very curious about this myth of Battery disconnect for ecu relearning as I've never seen actual convincing results. 

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It's not a myth, but usually the adaptation is toward safety and economy rather than "gains". A remap takes away some safety margin, or puts some back in if you're adding boost.

Things that can change:

  • Derestricted intake (e.g. less effective air filter), leans out AFR, ECU applies a little extra fuel to compensate
  • Dodgy intake misleads air meter, car makes more peak power by leaning out the AFR. May self-correct over time.
  • Freer breathing engine makes more usable power - irrespective of fuelling, an engine under less load can generate more torque. Exhaust pressure is load, intake restriction is load. It may make a little extra on top due to unexpected leanness.

Things that cannot change without intervention:

  • The base map. That safety margin for crap fuel, bad weather, high altitude and such is still there.
  • Trims have upper and lower limits - you can't just add a turbo and expect the ECU to compensate. You might just about be able to handle a low pressure supercharger, but you would be living right on the edge. It doesn't know you need a different AFR, but it can at least add more fuel to match the observed airflow.
  • Valve timing and lift settings, ignition timing

In "closed loop" at low load the ECU uses the O2 sensor in the exhaust to compute a short-term fuel trim which it combines with long term and base map to decide fuelling. That informs the next fuel injection cycle and the long term fuel trim is tweaked. In "open loop" at high load, the ECU ignores the O2 sensor and blindly applies the long term trim to the base map. The learning is in the range of +/- 20%.

Disconnecting the battery and flushing the trims is usually less helpful than normal driving.

Edited by nerdstrike
Terminology switcheroo, thanks knightryder

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9 hours ago, nerdstrike said:

In "open loop" at low load the ECU uses the O2 sensor in the exhaust to compute a short-term fuel trim which it combines with long term and base map to decide fuelling. That informs the next fuel injection cycle and the long term fuel trim is tweaked. In "closed loop" at high load, the ECU ignores the O2 sensor and blindly applies the long term trim to the base map. The learning is in the range of +/- 20%.

Open loop is no feedback, closed loop is where the O2 feedback is used to adjust fueling. You got those crossed but otherwise spot on. It's worth noting that there is not a long term trim but various ones stored and applied over the RPM range and fueling split.

13 hours ago, BRZ-123 said:

If ECU does not learn much, how does it work with detecting fuel changes (i.e. high octane vs low octane) and adjust timing to prevent knock? And with a battery reset, its always mentioned ECU needs time to relearn the map, is that a myth then?

Fuel trims as above. The Subaru method for global knock control is basic using a method called advance multiplier. 2 ignition timing tables, 1 is the base table and the other the advance. The advance multiplier is just literally a multiplier for the advance table. As standard it is set to 0.7 and if the ECU picks up no signals it determines as knock the IAM will increase towards 1 in increments. If there are any signals that it determines as severe enough knock then it will stop increasing or even decrease the IAM. This is constantly changing unless at 1 with no knock, so running 95 RON fuel for a while won't make the ECU run worse once you switch to better fuel but it will take (not much) time to adjust. This is only part of the knock control strategy but the one relevant to general fuel quality. All the info you'll want is here: http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic1840.html

Battery/ECU reset just clears fuel trims and the advance multiplier and learnt ranges for accelerator pedal/throttle position sensor and possibly a few other sensors. I re-calibrate the sensors straight after an ECU flash.

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Fuel trims as above. The Subaru method for global knock control is basic using a method called advance multiplier. 2 ignition timing tables, 1 is the base table and the other the advance. The advance multiplier is just literally a multiplier for the advance table. As standard it is set to 0.7 and if the ECU picks up no signals it determines as knock the IAM will increase towards 1 in increments. If there are any signals that it determines as severe enough knock then it will stop increasing or even decrease the IAM. This is constantly changing unless at 1 with no knock, so running 95 RON fuel for a while won't make the ECU run worse once you switch to better fuel but it will take (not much) time to adjust. This is only part of the knock control strategy but the one relevant to general fuel quality. All the info you'll want is here: http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic1840.html
Battery/ECU reset just clears fuel trims and the advance multiplier and learnt ranges for accelerator pedal/throttle position sensor and possibly a few other sensors. I re-calibrate the sensors straight after an ECU flash.
Thanks for the explanation DJ Learn something new everyday!

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1 hour ago, knightryder said:

Open loop is no feedback, closed loop is where the O2 feedback is used to adjust fueling

Right you are, should have checked.

Thanks for the insight into knock control!

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Finally putting pen to paper to give my 2p worth on the Mods @Mike@TD.co.uk fitted with the team for me.

Taken me a while to post up as I have been too busy to drive the car and don't use it for work :(

 

So I had fitted

>NA kit for EL manifold (keeping the standard 2nd CAT and exhaust)

>MTEC shifter springs

> Whiteline positive shift bush

 

So to sweet talk the other half into this been a good idea and the long drive from Essex to be worth it we had a day out shopping in Warrington and a trip to Blackpool :lol:

 

We stayed at the IBIS down the road which was nice enough and had a good breakfast. Was worth the £45 to have the short drive to TD in the morning

 

Arrived at 9am to find mike and co unloading an endless chain of nice Toyotas from the workshop. Had a good chinwag left the keys with them and got a cab to Warrington.

to our surprise mike was on the phone by 1pm stating that the car was done and it was good to roll. cant beat that for efficiency!

Arrived back at TD settled the tab and mike gave me a quick run through of the maps and settings and off we went.

 

Before and after Graph:

The old girl made good power in stock form B) obviously the life of a press and demo car and my track day appetite giving it a hard life from birth paid off!

 

First impressions were that on cruise the car sounded more of less the same but has a nice little rasp now when pressing on through the revs. Ideal for what I wanted which was a stealthy sound and still be within the noise limits at all the strictest tracks (IE Bedford)

Didn't really get much of a chance to have a play with the car coming home due to traffic and a boot full of luggage.

Few weeks later I finally got to take the car out for a proper blast on a nice sunny Sunday. The car now has a butter smooth power curve which is actually deceptive and doesn't actually make the car feel any quicker. However coming out of corners and starting off there is no torque dip and the mid range is very strong. Also at the last GT86 meet I had a play with a couple of stock 86's coming home and after 2nd gear the car will now comfortably pull away so defiantly an improvement even if the feel is deceptive.

However my favourite thing about the changes actually is the throttle map. In map 3 with the most sensitive throttle map it is lovely. And this is the setting it has been left in since picking it up. Makes the car feel so much more eager and makes heel and toe action even easier.

Cant really comment on launch control, flat foot shifting and autoblip as I have not really used them.

When I first picked up the car I was really not sure on the MTEC shifter spring upgrade. felt all it had done was make the shift heavier. However I think they are growing on me....

Not sure if I would do with the whiteline shift bush again though as it was increased noise a fair bit at low speeds. However this may bed in a bit and I am yet to try it on track to see the difference in hard use.

 

Also having the cold start mapped out is an added bonus!

 

In summary happy chap and cant wait to try it on track on the 5th of November. Will be like an outing for the TD cars with us all going along. Hoping to get a ride in Vads TD turbo car to plan my future spending :P

 

 

 

graph.jpg

pic2.jpg

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Yeah, ready for Bedford ... hope the weather is dry, although my first track day after TD NA was rainy day fun with few trips to the grasslands and spin coming into main strait.

You on for passengers ride

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Hello all,
 
We've decided to put together a package for those wanting to release more power from their GT86 or BRZ, without going for forced induction  
The kit contains the following:
 
'Before' Dyno Run
Tuning Developments Manifold (EL or UEL)
Tuning Developments Overpipe
Gaskets
Heat Wrap For 'Downpipe' Section
K&N 'Drop In' Replacement Panel Filter
Installation
ECUTeK License
In House Remap On The Dyno
 
£1495.00 inc VAT
 
Website link here
 
Equal%20Length%20Exhaust%20Header%20Manifold%20BRZ%20GT86%20FA20.jpg
Unequal%20Length%20Exhaust%20Header%20Manifold%20BRZ%20GT86%20FA20.jpg
GT86BRZFRSHeadersManifold_zps9a688281.jpg
DSC_5595_zpsqvjkpvau.jpg~original
 
This package has been proven to remove the torque dip which plagues these cars, along with making more peak power. The whole curve is stronger, making the driving experience much more enjoyable! The ECUTeK Remap features the excellent RaceROM which gives you 4 switchable maps via the cruise control stalk which can be adjusted whilst on the fly. For those without cruise control we can set this up via the heated rear window button. Net gains are upto 30lb.ft through the mid range and upto 25bhp peak power (based against a 100% factory car).
 
You do not have to have an aftermarket exhaust, this is completely optional. The second CAT can also stay in place if needed. This gives an end result of a car that when cruising, sounds very close to OE sound levels, and has a pleasant bark to it when pressing on through the gears. The gains in torque make it much nicer to drive and give a far more linear delivery.
 
13126787_126236444446938_97946458_n.jpg
13129700_167566566979057_1789478526_n.jpg
 
The top dyno graph has the factory second CAT and factory exhaust.
The lower dyno graph has a high flow second CAT and an aftermarket exhaust.
 
DSC_5610_zpsbwwmka9d.jpg~original
Above - TD EL Manifold, Full Exhaust & In House ECUTeK Tune (Didn't photo the overlay from before sorry!)
 
DSC_5600_zpsogqar3wn.jpg~original
Above - Exhaust & ECUTeK Tune - Versus TD UEL Manifold & In House ECUTeK Tune.
 
 
DSC_5592_zpsrzwyxuit.jpg~original
Above - Exhaust & Stock Tune - Versus TD EL Manifold & In house ECUTeK Tune.
 
14012791_10153887906392993_1917209824_o_zpslpon9v8i.jpg~original
Above - Full Exhaust & Tomei Manifold & ECUTeK Tune - Versus Full Exhaust & TD EL Manifold & In House ECUTeK Tune
 
Noise testing data
 
This Package (UEL Manifold)

Stock Second CAT

Our Resonated CAT Back Exhaust

@4500rpm static test is 89db.

 

Gives a lovely bark when pushing on yet subtle when cruising.

 

When we have an EL setup in we will do the same test.

 

 

This Package (EL Manifold)

Stock Second CAT

Stock CAT Back Exhaust

@5000rpm static test is 84db.

 
 
[/url]  
Feedback: Some of the feedback from the NA Tuning Package.
 
5a50aaceb9e5d_Feedback1.thumb.jpg.47b90844bac7ee177a1005dc858fbfdd.jpg

 
Any questions, drop me a PM on here, email me on mike@tuningdevelopments.co.uk or give me a call on 01925 822 266.
 
Thanks
 
Mike

Throughly endorsing Mike and his team . She is now a much nicer drive, more so than I expected, much more ompf, wanting to do more and letting you know the power is there, more so than before . No radio, window down to hear the new sound, just perfect, not loud but has a lovely growl. He also fitted an MTEC shifter spring kit while she was being done, so much sharper gear changes. Couldn’t be happier. Thanks again guys


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35 minutes ago, gavin_t said:

Ta mate

 

Sneaky pic of when I had freshly DA polished it and applied a fresh coat of finish kare 1000 B)

Funny that, after seeing your car it spurred me on to treat mine. It also got a coat of fk1000p on it! Great stuff that, it's the first time I've used it on my 86.

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I'm still absolutely loving my URL NA tune Mike :) The shifter springs have made it a joy to change gear!

I wish I could go for the turbo but I haven't got the space / time / friendly MOT tester to not have a second CAT :(

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Hi, just a query regarding this na tune, how long does it typically take to do it all? So fitting manifold, overpipe, tuning etc?.. Asking mainly as... Well Cheshire is pretty far north for me (3 hour drive) so purely wondering. 

I was debating body work modifications, but since I'm going to keep this car till it dies I may go down the performance route instead. I may also consider the td cat back too maybe, half my cat back is custom the other is quicksilver, but the quicksilver part is cracked and blowing... Hence the consideration to changing exhaust.  

So yeah if you would let me know potential time frames to carrying out work I'd be appreciative, thanks. 

 

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